Is that my backside hanging out..?

[Mark McClure]

Well it had to happen.... in the past I have raced motorcycles and driven fast cars, I can handle this......or maybe not!.....the Porsche is a bit different in that when I lost it there was no getting it back....... I decided to throw it around a roundabout close to home, something that I have done several times before, the arse end slowly and gracefully overtook me......so in a desperate bid to save something I jammed the brakes on......too late...as I exited the road backwards the kids in the school field cheered. Nothing like an appreciative audience!?

Luckily the only damage is to the rear wheel.....although this is a Remotec so replacment may be hard and I don't think that you can fix mags.....at least it is not fractured just bent and the tyre is still inflated.

Bugger....I was having fun up until then!

[CamB]

Bugger! Is right.

Don't forget to check the alignment, wheel bearings, etc. There are a few other things back there which can get damaged.

Did you ever figure out your engine issues????

Cam

[dickster]

so in a desperate bid to save something I jammed the brakes on......

i thought you were supposed to give it some throttle...

at least you know where the limit is now

[Mark McClure]

CamB,

Funnily enough I was coming back from a guy who builds 911's and has a good understanding of the history of the engine. I did have a plan of attack to put things right.......Q: where is your motec mounted? My microtech is under the passenger seat, I think that the cables are two long and getting interference.

I think that stepping on the gas would have mad things worse....at least existing the road the speed was being scrubbed off, instead of exiting at a high speed.........yes I now know the boundary.

That brings up an interesting question.......what are peoples thoghts on the right things to do in a "passed" sideways situation?

[dickster]

passed the point of no return, i wouldn't think theres much that can be done....just pray

[Bobboloo]

I've read that some race drivers just let go of the wheel let off the gas and no brakes and the car will sort itself out. I however have no experience in this matter so there you go.

Bobby

[A Quiet Boom]

Haven't tried it in the P-car yet (haven't had to) but in my experience past the point of no return, push in the clutch hands loose on the wheel most cars will sort themselves. Simply letting go of the gas is sometimes the worst thing you can do since it effectively brakes the rear wheels. Around here the roads get pretty slick in the winter and this trick has worked in every RWD vehicle I've tried it with.

[Chuck Moreland]

......so in a desperate bid to save something I jammed the brakes on......

And that is where you went wrong. Once you touch the brakes there is no way to save it.

When you feel the rear end starting to pass, the correct thing to do is "floor the throttle and steer like mad".

When you punch the throttle, weight transfers onto the rear tires, pressing them harder against the pavement and improving traction. If you react fast enough you can save it.

Its counterintuitive, takes presense of mind and big pair of balls, but it is the only chance you have to save it. This is the very reason why the 911 is considered an "experts" car (that's not a title I'd apply to myself).

It's also the reason why the 911 can corner so fast. Consider what happens when you have to take turns under heavy throttle - your corner exit speed is high!

[YTNUKLR]

...Never lift....

[cstreit]

Right...

Remember... When the rear was sliding out, it didn't have enough traction...

So.. by adding throttle you move weight to the rear and add traction to those wheels. THe amount of throttle and counter-steering depends on road conditions and severity of the spin.

Of course, once it becomes unrecoverable, brakes and clutch in full is all you can do.

The point of letting go the steering wheel (NOT COMPLETELY) is to help prevent over-correction. I've done it before and it works, but is typically left for situations where correction is close to hopeless.

If you look at my website, under "Results" and find the video of Road America in the rain, you can see the "letting go the wheel" demonstration working... But in this case, I reduced throttle because of power-on oversteer induced by rain.

[Vipergrün]

Make sure you are prepared for a good tail-wag the other direction if you hit the throttle and try to steer into it

After a similar experience, I spent some time in a deserted parking lot getting to know my car. By the end I could steer and gas my way out of trouble. Delicate steering input is key.....unless you wan to spin the other direction!

[jkeyzer]

In slippery conditions (gravel, water, etc.) wouldn't stomping on the gas just make things worse by causing the rear wheels to spin and further lose traction? It seems like there is a limit to when this well known technique can be used safely. I've never gotten myself into enough trouble to have to execute.

[Superman]

Never lift.

I'm sure it is possible to spin a 911 without lifting, but it doesn't happen very often. I had the rear kick out on me recently, on a sharp freeway onramp, with the throttle open. But that is BY FAR the exception. 9 times out of ten, when I spin the throttle is closed. With the throttle open your chances of spinning are reduced by at least 80%.

When you're in a corner a little too hot, lifting the throttle will guarantee a spin. Your only hope at that point is to stay on the throttle.

Last autocross of the season at Bremerton is Saturday.

[eion]

Originally posted by Superman
Never lift.



When you're in a corner a little too hot, lifting the throttle will guarantee a spin. Your only hope at that point is to stay on the throttle.

Truer words were never spoken. I was able to catch the spin last time I lifted off going too fast round a corner... but I still lost control of the car and damaged it
Must do some Driver's Ed.

[Jeff]

Mark, What can you tell me about Remotec wheels. I have a set in the attic that the P.O. put on my car. I have never heard of them and can't find a web site. Do you have a picture of them?

[CamB]

MArk

Mine is mounted behind the driver under where the passengers feet would go (on the bulkhead to the engine). I guess the wire-run is pretty short from there.

[silverc4s]

All of you that have asked questions on this thread - PLEASE find a way to autocross your Porsche, or attend a DE event with PCA, POC or your associated club wherever you may be. Do it soon!

The 911 is NOT a car for the uninitiated to drive anywhere near it's limits on public streets. Get familiar with your machine, folks - it will be a rewarding experience, guaranteed!!!..

[jluetjen]

You are incredably lucky that the kids were in the field and were not on the side of the road waiting to cross for the convience store! We are both incredably lucky that it wasn't my kids!!!

That being said, the next time that this happens on the race or autocross course...

The old truism of racing still applies in a 911:

When you spin -- both feet in! (ie: clutch and brake)

The other thing to keep in mind is that in a situation like this, "punching" the throttle will not help matters, and could very well make it worse. When you are close to the limit (on either side) it is important to be putting in subtle inputs to the car - remember that the car is in an "unstable" sitatuation. If you make any drastic inputs, chances are that if you save it, you will lose it on the rebound. Skip Barber does an awsome job of teaching this, and it requires a fair amount of practice (on the track!) to learn it. It is not intuitive. Basically there are two parts to recovering from a spin:

1) Catch the spin - when you stop the progress of the rear end around. Most people can figure this part out. And (the part that most people are not aware of...)

2) Recovery - when you ANTICIPATE the car rotating in the other direction. Often there may be more then one recover in alternating directions. The key is to dampen the movement so that they get progressively smaller.

When you are really (really) good, an outside observer will hardly notice the spin and recovery from outside the car. This is what is meant by driving "at the limit". Being able to do this takes a lot of practice.

Mark, you've most likely got a better appreciation of a 911's dynamics now. Please to you other "street racers" - please take Mark's experience to heart -- and don't repeat it lest you find yourself a "Darwin Award" winner, or worse...

[Mark McClure]

There seams to be a bit of both answers here......from full throttle to brake. Even though it is silly to do this on the street we all have a go at it at some point......the rear of the Porsche does seam to be a bit hairy......When I loved in the UK I used to drive a lot in the snow, so sliding and drifting I can deal with......but you are right I reached my point of knowledge. It is quite easy to rear wheel slide these things and I have been doing it for over a year in this car, normally on corners and roundabouts that no one else is near......only my own car to damage. In this instance the curbs are close and scrubbing off the speed ASAP was my immediate reaction......maybe with more training and experience I could have drivern out of it......that in itself is the lesson I am taken away from this.

To clarify the image the road has about over 30m grass area on both side...the school is about 200m off the road but in full view and there are no shops near and no padestrians. I have two small kids and a wife so being careful not to put anyone else in danger is important to me. Yes the safest place is the track!

By the way I am using Khumo tyres....anyone else had any experience with these?

[stuartj]

jluetjen is right on the money. Any HP instructor will teach you that when its gone and you dont know what to do, two feet in hard, and try to have the slowest possible accident. The car will actually stop very quickly sideways. Under the circumstances, Mark did the right thing, IMHO.

jluetjen is right again when he says the answer is getting on a track. Knowing when to use power or brakes when on the (your) limit in a 911 can only be really be learned and understood in controlled repeatable circumstances, such as on a racetrack, where the effects of the weight transference/traction changes can be repeated.

The other great benefit of track time this is that it improves your awareness and vision. ie, try to have a " safe" accident. This came home to me on track day recently. I lost the car on fast 3rd gear corner. Outside the corner was a concrete wall. I knew I could very proabaly catch the car with the thottle and keeping pointed down the road, but this risked an over correction and the famous 911 tail snap back, and if that happened, there an accident going to happen on the outside wall 50 metres further down the road. So I let it spin to the inside on the grass, two feet in, then moduated the brakes and waited for it come round the right way, selected 1st, and drove away.

Nett result- blown lap, (my) limit found for the corner (turn 11, Winton for the Australians), but no damage and not even a sweat raised. All that happened absoutley without conscious thought, and I was only able to get away with exceeding my extremely mundane driving skills because I have had practice losing control of a 911 on a race track, and I understood what my options were in that situation. You just cant learn this on the road- since this rather ordinary little incident, the value of HP training has really sheeted home.

911s can bite back. jluetjen offers very wise advice, again, just in MHO.

My 3.87 cents, regards

stuart