Looks like high mileage 964's are firmly under $20K

[billh1963]

Looks like 964 prices are firmly under $20K for high mileage examples. 993's are $30k and under. Looks like it's a price freefall!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871805751

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1872051797

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1872185280

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1872260762

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871866101

[Lothar]

I am wondering when the price of a used 3.6 motor will follow. What's the lowest price anyone has seen for a good 3.6 and with how many miles?

[89911]

Is this really newsworthy? All older cars are going to depreciate! As far as Ebay prices, I thinks those are mostly "bottom of the barrel" cars whose prices reflect there quality. Price is dictated by demand, therefore nobody wants 964's, especially ones with high milage. That a 13 year old car is still fetching close to 20 grands is still surprising to me.

[Doug E]

The one that surprises me from those auctions is the last one, the '95 993 which had a reserve set at $29,950. This seems low for a car with 47k miles so I wonder if there is something wrong with it ???

[nostatic]

And how much does a rebuild cost?

Seems that the lore is the 964 and 993 engines aren't lasting as long as earlier engines. Is a 3.6 more expensive to rebuild? And how about ABS, power steering, and other systems? I suspect they are getting cheap to buy because they are getting expensive to fix...

[Rick Lee]

I think the tiptronic trans. explains a few of them. The others can easily be cheap upfront and very expensive later. As much as I lust for a 993, I can't imagine the pain of making a bad choice on one. I think can handle anything that comes up with my car, but a 964 or 993 scares me. I watched a guy do an oil change on a 993 last weekend and he was there for hours - even with a lift and surrounded by tools and help.

Check out this engine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1872245860&rd=1

[Doug Zielke]

Originally posted by nostatic
.....Seems that the lore is the 964 and 993 engines aren't lasting as long as earlier engines. ......

A professional Porsche mechanic at a local dealership, told me the exact same thing. (I was asking him why there were so many crates of motors sitting on the shop floor......)

[Chuck Moreland]

But none of those cars are sold, the auctions are still open some with days left. So what does that prove? Ebay actions usually run up in the last minutes as snipers step in.

Granted prices have come down a bit with the economy. This is a good time to buy, hell I'm not shopping but if I happen across some deals I'll buy more cars.

I think the sky-is-falling alarmism has been overdone. People talking about selling before their car loses more value, craziness.

These aren't overinflated internet stocks. These are great cars with intrinsic value that people will always pay for. Yes, spot prices will move a few grand with the economy, big deal. When the economy recovers these cars are likely to appreciate, certainly the older cars will. Buy now while you can.

[Jim T]

Originally posted by nostatic
And how much does a rebuild cost?

Seems that the lore is the 964 and 993 engines aren't lasting as long as earlier engines.

I'm sure the 964 guys will soundly trounce this, but the shop that I get my 911 smogged at had around 6 964s on lifts when I was there.

Every single one of them was covered with oil on the bottom - I mean Exxon Valdez levels.

I asked why they were so oily, the mechanic said the 964s run way too hot and cook the seals. He was not really big on them - wouldn't recommend as a used car purchase.

I'm sure that is totally untrue - but that's what he said. (He's been working on 911s at the same location for 30 years now - definately not a "newbie").

[Milu]

Originally posted by nostatic
And how much does a rebuild cost?

Seems that the lore is the 964 and 993 engines aren't lasting as long as earlier engines. Is a 3.6 more expensive to rebuild? And how about ABS, power steering, and other systems? I suspect they are getting cheap to buy because they are getting expensive to fix...

I bought a 964 new and didn't keep it long because of financial problems, with all the silly little problems I had in the short time I owned it I would be very wary of ever buying an old one. To paraphrase Warren from another thread their reliability doesn't improve with age.

I accept mine was a lemon at what was a difficult period in my life but it made a lasting impression!

[5axis]

It seems that 993TT's are coming down a bit too. Maybe the tide is lowering all boats for moment. I want one of these things but..

A professional Porsche mechanic at a local dealership, told me the exact same thing. (I was asking him why there were so many crates of motors sitting on the shop floor......)

Are there 993Turbo issuses popping up too?


David 89 turbo cab

[Jim T]

Originally posted by Chuck Moreland
But none of those cars are sold, the auctions are still open some with days left. So what does that prove? Ebay actions usually run up in the last minutes as snipers step in.

Granted prices have come down a bit with the economy. This is a good time to buy, hell I'm not shopping but if I happen across some deals I'll buy more cars.

I think the sky-is-falling alarmism has been overdone. People talking about selling before their car loses more value, craziness.

These aren't overinflated internet stocks. These are great cars with intrinsic value that people will always pay for. Yes, spot prices will move a few grand with the economy, big deal. When the economy recovers these cars are likely to appreciate, certainly the older cars will. Buy now while you can.

I don't know about that. Maybe. These are production cars, lots were made, no collector value at all, and they are getting older. I'm not sure the sky is falling as to prices. 964s are now 9 to 13 model years old, getting a lot closer to the bottom of the depreciation curve. Their current pricing doesn't necessarily seem to be unusual to me. A lot of 9 to 13 year old cars (esp. daily drivers, which a lot of 911s are) are starting to need some major work.

Production cars depreciate in value quite a bit. 911s probably hold a little better than most, but are still good volume production cars. With a few exceptions, a car is doing ok if it retains 50% of its value after 5 years and 24% of its value after 10 - that's the way it pretty much always has been.

[Wayne 962]

I know that this is an unpopular opinion, but I think that *eventually* the 964 cars will be priced lower than the 1987-89 cars. The late-model 1987-89 Carrera had a few problems with the engine (valve guides, head studs, and rod bolts), but less little oil leak problems and other small items that seem to dog the owners that I know.

The story seems consistent - 1987-89 owners seem to have little repair work to do to their car, while 964 owners seem to have lots of little problems. Of course, it is also highly dependent upon mileage...

-Wayne

[Doug Zielke]

Originally posted by Jim T

Every single one of them was covered with oil on the bottom - I mean Exxon Valdez levels.

Once I was looking at buying a '91 964 motor from a wreck. The motor was leaking *everywhere*. If you think rebuilding a pre-'90 motor is going to be expensive, just imagine one of these!

[nostatic]

well if this is the case, then I ask this in all sincerity:

what the heck is up with all the 3.6 swaps?

Are these engines going to require rebuilds sooner rather than later? Do they still run hot in the older cars? It would be a bummer to plop a 3.6 motor in to replace a tired 3.0/3.2 and in 15K miles have to rebuild it. Talk about being upside down on the car...

Then again...all that hp...mmmmm...

[speeder]

I've been told by a knowledgeable Porsche mechanic that the 3.6 engine is no more expensive to rebuild than any other 911 motor. He thought, and I could not disagree, that cheap 964s are the car to buy, with real HP even stock, real HVAC, coil springs and other 20th century type improvements. Yes, these cars had issues, (which 911 doesn't??), but had some serious design improvements as well that many here do not seem familiar with. Plus many of them out there have had mechanical issues dealt with and will still be cheap. I would be very tempted by a good deal on one. FWIW, I was offered a '90 black/black coupe w/ 100k miles for $12,000 6 months ago, it was a "cash in hand right this minute" deal and I did not have it, so he traded it in, (for $12,000).

[86Carrera]

The third 964 looked quite good, the last one looked really tired. 993 looks good and the $30K price isn't surprising considering the tiptro but the mileage is lower than you would typically see.

If there are no mechanical issues this is a very nice $30K car. If it needs $6,000 worth of work it's not a better deal than a high $30s car.

I was surprised all of the 964s were at dealers, dealers tend to mark up meaning they got these cars real cheap or are unloading because they see early 964 values falling even further.

Any of those 964s that has been repainted or needs engine work is not a good deal, think of how much you will have invested and then what the car will be worth given the continuing depreciation.

I don't see mint, low mileage late 993s with 6-speed ever falling below $40K. Mint, low mileage 3.2s never under $25K. Early 3.2s are a good deal at $22 - 24K. I see 993 values falling with 964 values to a point.

Pete
86 Coupe
(worth way less than what I have in it but it's family now)

[speeder]

Pete, surely you meant to say that early 3.2s are a good deal at $12-$14k, this is what we are seeing lately. Not for PCA concours/garage queens, but decent used examples.

[billh1963]

Speeder...Wow! $12K? How did you let it go? I would rather have put my money into a risk like that than in the stock market in the last 2 years :-)

Anyway, If you look at the auctions (open and closed) you will see that a good number of 964's (including Cab's) have closed under $20K. The first one I listed (c4) just closed at $17.9K. I have been talking to the dealer on the third 964 and it sounds good. I doubt it'll go above $15K because of the mileage. What is the consensus of the board on this one?

[86Carrera]

Naw I meant mint, low mileage G50 Coupes. They will remain at $25K unless the seller is in crisis.

People (SC owners?) love to say mint Coupes are "a dime a dozen" and then you ask to seen ads for low mileage examples under $25K and there's silence. Mint to me would be a Calif. car with original paint.

On 993s following 964 values I meant 95 993s. I think the late 993s will remain high because people will always want them just like they will always want late 3.2s and SCs.

As several have said it's not unusual that 964 prices are falling, they should considering the economy and their age.

What's unusual is that some of the aircooled models are immune to the economic times. These are the special cars.