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200K Mile 83 SC Refresh

Hello Pelicans,

Last April I bought myself this 83 SC coupe.





Its my first 911 and I am hopelessly in love with it. It has 200K miles and I bought it knowing it was tired and would need engine work in the near future. I plan on doing as much of the work myself. Since then I have been having a blast driving it and fixing all sorts of minor things here and there. Cleaned it up, replaced the fuel pump/filter, removed a horrible aftermarket alarm, added a Seine gate shifter, replaced the fluids, oil filter, cap, rotor, and plugs, and then did a valve adjustment.

Surprise, surprise. What do I find next?



Of course. No matter. Its only 1 busted stud and the car seems to run fine. I figured I will keep driving it and research head stud replacement sooner than later.

As I am cleaning the engine compartment to figure out where oil leaks are coming from I find the O2 sensor is disconnected. Remembering how sooty the old spark plugs were when I replaced them I tested the O2 sensor and reconnected it hoping it would remedy the rich-running condition. Car ran fine for a few days and one cool morning the airbox went BOOM!



So now I need to go through the whole CIS system to replace all seals and the airbox. Also as long as I am in there, replace the headstuds and fix all the oil leaks. Perfect excuse to drop the engine and dig into it. I do not know if I will require a full rebuild or not, but looking at old threads it seems like the logical thing to do since I will be so far into it.

Bought a Bentley manual, Wayne's 101 projects, and engine rebuild books. Researched some older threads for engine drop advice. Off I went disconnecting stuff and I ended up here:





Im already compiling a huge parts list for the CIS and engine oil leak culprits. However before I go placing any parts orders I would like to ask for your input based on some visual inspections as we go along. For example, look at how filthy this all is:





The tranny is completely caked in grease. Actually the whole bottom rear of the car is. I feel like I should first reseal the tranny, then set it aside and tackle the engine work. Does this look like it could be caused solely by a leaky shift rod seal? What are other common tranny leak locations?

Thanks in advance for the input and Im looking forward to this incredible journey.

Regards,
Jose

Last edited by 2jmotorsports; 02-17-2016 at 10:49 AM.. Reason: Make title more accurate.
Old 12-05-2015, 11:14 PM
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Nothing terribly technical yet. Just cleaning up the tranny case using Purple Power for the heavy gunk and my trusty steam cleaner for the stubborn stuff.



Seem to be making progress.



Got tired of working at ground level so separated the tranny from the engine and lifted it onto a stand. Thankfully not as heavy as I initially thought.





A lot of nooks and crannies on this thing so it might be a while before I get it spotless. Dont think my OCD is going to let this one slide...

Last edited by 2jmotorsports; 12-21-2015 at 07:25 AM..
Old 12-20-2015, 08:15 PM
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Nice going there!

I actually have a 79' Sc that I bought two years ago that has 179K miles that has sat for two years that I recently dropped the engine from and plan on having the engine rebuilt (top and bottom) as well as the tranny rebuilt as well. The work for me is to commence early January and, is probably to last through April/May.

My tranny and engine looked about the same upon removal. Lots of gunk on there from the oil spewing out the back seals, etc.

Best wishes for an excellent project!

Paul
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Old 12-20-2015, 08:21 PM
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Too bad about the dilivar....I suspect it would of gone quite a bit longer without that issue...I traded my 83 SC 930 16 out at 230 k and it was still strong but burning some oil...got a low miles 930 10 with a top end rebuild in exchange.
My old motor looked like that and I believe a lot of it was the PO overfilling oil. Tkae the time to periodically clean up underneath in the future and it will stay that way.
200 k you should do the complete top/bottom end....they are great cars and worth the effort...good luck.
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Old 12-20-2015, 08:35 PM
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2jmotorsports - can you provide more detail on the use of the steamer and it's other uses? I hear they are handy, but have never seen one in action.

Thanks, Hugh
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Old 12-21-2015, 05:24 AM
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Did an engine drop last year to fix a lot of little things.

Here is a list of things to check out and some tips that were shared with me. Nothing worse than getting the engine back together and then realizing you missed an opportunity.

- check out your engine harness and CIS harness. Consider getting Dennis (timmy2) to build you a new one. Add the modular connection for the dizzy green wire replacement.

- good time to bench test all of the CIS components

- check the throttle linkage bushings on the tranny and the throttle bellcrank next to the case vent. Buy the brass Weltmeister replacements that Pelican sells

- check for the classic triangle of death oil leaks (likely)

- put a bead of JB weld around the oil pressure switch where the metal crimps over the bottom of the red plastic. Oil can still seep by even with a new one and this will prevent it.

- there are several threads that discuss the Porsche service bulletin on the possible leak at where the oil cooler mates to the case. Easy fix while the engine is out.

- replace the oil cooler seals. The bottom one is ok to use the green viton ring on but use the reddish/brown ones on the top seals that are under pressure

- unless you are replacing the half shafts with the newer, thinner flange style look into using Stage 8 locking fasteners

- don't forget the nose seal on the tranny shift linkage

- good time to do the clutch-related stuff

- check out the shift coupler bushings

- replace the vac lines

- check the tranny and motor mounts. Lots of discussion on replacement options. I did the cheap 'upgrade' by replacing with the cabriolet sport mounts (slightly stiffer)

- replace the transmission ground strap

- there are lots of ways you can spend your money 'while you're in there'. Some are extrememly worthwhile and others are harder to justify from a cost vs value perspective. Make a priority list and define a budget up front to help decide whether something is really necessary or not.
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Last edited by tirwin; 12-21-2015 at 06:23 AM..
Old 12-21-2015, 06:17 AM
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Thanks for the pointers, Tim. I have your rebuild thread bookmarked as one of my many sources of documentation.

Hugh,

I have only used mine for removing stubborn oil and grease from exterior drivetrain, suspension, and underbody surfaces. I usually spray on degreaser full strength and brush to get thick stuff off. Once the grime thins out a shot of steam followed by a wipe with a rag or paper towel leaves the surface completely clean.

I avoid areas that have electrical components for obvious reasons. Although I have yet to do this, apparently steam is also useful for cleaning interior surfaces such as carpets, seats, interior panels, etc. , again, as long as you stay away from the electronics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT10-bIAgyk

Hope this helps.
Old 12-21-2015, 07:41 AM
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I rebuilt my '79 engine. I just looked to find my posts, from the rebuild, and realized it was 10 years ago. Not sure of the mileage. My odometer hasn't worked in a bit but I have had no problems. There is so much info on this forum, but if you have any questions ask and many will chime in with answers. Several times I contacted John Walker and others and they quickly responded with simple, direct answers.
I used the 3 books you listed.
Good Luck. Its a fun, fulfilling journey.

Kevin
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Old 12-21-2015, 08:02 AM
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A clean engine is a happy engine, but why do you feel you need to rebuild it?
I'm at 396,000 km and the car runs as good as it ever has in the 15 years I've had it.
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:06 AM
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Jose,

Welcome to the world of working on your 911! Best of luck with the rebuild, the car looks fantastic. It sounds like you are well on your way to a successful rebuild.

Can you tell me about the McCulloch steam cleaner you have? It looks like a nice addition to my tools and just in time to ask Santa for one!
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911 Rod View Post
A clean engine is a happy engine, but why do you feel you need to rebuild it?
At 200k miles, that is a fair question. It may be far from toast.

The incremental cost of the case refresh would not be that much. Jose seems pretty handy and the case alone should not eat that much time.

A pro takes 40 hours for a full rebuild. Multiply that number by five and throw 40 hours out the window. Time is your best friend, Jose. Use a lot of it.

The big money is pistons and cylinders. Where does one draw the line as to wear tolerance? Let's say ring lands are ok, bores are not perfect but within out-of-round tolerance and ring end gap has 40% life left? Do you pull the trigger? Do you still do the bottom end? Can you re-ring pistons in Alusil cylinders without a hitch?

One school of thought is to pull the cam tower and three heads off, still connected together as a unit. Replace the bottom row and put it back together.
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Last edited by Bob Kontak; 12-21-2015 at 10:56 AM..
Old 12-21-2015, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911 Rod View Post
A clean engine is a happy engine, but why do you feel you need to rebuild it?
I'm at 396,000 km and the car runs as good as it ever has in the 15 years I've had it.
To be honest I do not know for sure if I should rebuild completely or not. This is just based on what I have read from previous build threads.

I know I have at least 1 broken head stud and it eats/leaks/consumes a quart of oil every few hundred miles. However if it turns out my internals looks pristine, then I sure wouldn't mind leaving the bottom end intact and just re-stud, re-ring, and have someone do the valve guides, if only for the sake of saying the bottom end has never been apart.

I guess my dis-assembly will reveal what needs to be re-done. Thanks for the input so far.

Keith, this is the steam cleaner I have: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mcculloch-Mc1275-Heavy-Steam-Cleaner/10771195

I cant remember if I bought it from either Amazon or Walmart. Harbor Freight currently carries it too. Might be worth walking into HF with a 25% off coupon.

Last edited by 2jmotorsports; 12-21-2015 at 01:01 PM..
Old 12-21-2015, 12:55 PM
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To assist with any future questions you have, you might want to cover your engine rebuild over in that forum - as the "experts" frequent it and can certainly answer any questions.

911 Engine Rebuilding Forum - Pelican Parts Technical BBS
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Old 12-21-2015, 02:33 PM
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Thanks Mark. I think Im going to drop the bulk of my work in this thread and pop in to ask rebuild specific questions there.

So I have been pretty busy with job, kids, and house stuff, like many of us. But I have been able to sneak some free time here and there to get stuff done. Got the tranny cleaned up.







Replaced the shift rod seal, the diff stub axle seals, and the shift fork cover gasket. Sealed with Curil T. Interesting heat marks on this fork. Is this bad? Maybe it was low on fluid at some point and got too hot?



Fork was firmly attached to the cover so I just cleaned it up and reinstalled with a new gasket.

Last summer I scored this Scheel Mann bucket at a local swap meet so I took the time to install it and put a harness on it for future autocross use.



The OE driver seat gets to be an extra chair in my office for now.

Old 02-16-2016, 08:59 PM
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Now I will focus my attention on the engine.



Undid all the intake elbow bolts, labelled all the connections and disconnected them, and voila.



As I was removing the CIS a couple of the intake elbows just slipped out of the rubber boots like nothing. Vacuum leak city. No wonder my airbox blew!

I was about to bolt my yoke adapter onto the back of the engine but the exhaust gets in the way. It prevents the adapter from seating against the case at the bottom stud.





So here is my adapter. I bought it a long time ago for use on VW engines and was no issue on those. I remember at the time the vendor said it would fit aircooled 911 engines as well. Worked fine on the 915 transaxle.



Might need to do some grinding to clear the exhaust.

Last edited by 2jmotorsports; 02-16-2016 at 09:36 PM..
Old 02-16-2016, 09:13 PM
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That style of adapter is better suited to bolting up on the other side of the engine for disassembly.
It interfered with the oil cooler on my engine when I used it.
The $145 ring adapter for normal engine stand hardware pelican sells is a nice unit for assembly, or buy/borrow the proper yoke.

Check this page:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_search_2014.cgi?command=show_part_page&please_wait=N&SUPERCAT_FLAG=Y&make=POR&model=911M&section=TOLTOL&page=8&bookmark=26&part_number=P201-M1229
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Last edited by timmy2; 02-17-2016 at 09:12 AM..
Old 02-17-2016, 09:06 AM
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I had pretty much the same scenario, and ended up deciding to do a full rebuild.

It looks like we have the same adapter as well. I mounted mine on the other side of the engine, and when I got to the point of splitting the case I removed the engine from the mount and reversed it (in order for the oil pump to be on the bottom half after opening it up), since at that point the oil cooler had been removed.
Old 02-17-2016, 11:36 AM
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Looks like you're having a great time! Six months after I got my SC, the clutch went. I took the opportunity to shore up some leaks and take care of a few other things, but I couldn't wait to get it back on the road. One year later to the month I found a broken head stud. In my case, nearing 150k miles, I felt it was worth the effort to go all the way and more than anything assess the overall condition of the motor rather than patch it up and drive it. It took me 18 months, but I truly enjoyed the experience. I learned a lot and met some really cool people, and now I know what kind of shape my motor is in. I'm looking forward to doing it again sometime.

My yoke is different than yours, but I had the same clearance issue with the exhaust. The easiest solution is to spend 10 minutes with a grinder. Piece of cake.

tirwin has a good list. Definitely do the bell housing bushings while the motor is out. A few dollars in bushings makes a big difference with the throttle linkage, and it's a huge PITA to do with the motor in.
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Old 02-17-2016, 08:51 PM
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The only way I'd think about not splitting the case at 200k is if I knew the total history and care the car had recv'd. Then I'd still split the case....just too many miles for a comfortable feeling.
I'd be fine if under 100k...over 200k nope. LV odds against a happy longevity outcome.
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Old 02-17-2016, 09:23 PM
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First of all, that cleaning job on the transmission case...it's glorious!

Regarding the heat marks on the shift rod support fork: I imagine that this part is heat treated for wear resistance. I could be wrong, but I don't think you have anything to worry about in that respect.



Best of luck with the rebuild!
Old 02-17-2016, 10:45 PM
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