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Jonny

I agree that your system will give better across the board performance than a Bosch CDI. This is especially true with carbs and and MFI that can often be off mixture and mostly too rich at times. A good powerful ignition can make a huge difference.

WWEST is famous for off the wall comments and analysis. Mysocal will tell you that the Bosch is just fine until the "Cows come home".

I ran my 1973 for 8 or 9 years with the OEM Bosch and then switched to a more advanced and powerful CDI, the Daytona-Sensors CDI. What a difference in day to day operation. I don't need to look at graphs, or have a battery of tests to know that a good modern CDI makes a huge difference. Period. I am sure your new unit will produce similar of better results than I have gotten.

Hang in there, Dave @ TRE is a great guy and should give you good feedback. I am sure you are getting your message out in spite of the fact that the same old naysayers are up to their old tricks. There are also lots of smart people here who are listening and are on to the act of some of the pundits here. They are getting the message I am sure.

Good luck with your new CDI.
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Old 03-06-2016, 03:53 PM
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Yes, we see the most potential from the carb and MFI cars.

Here's the multiple race winning Historika 2.0 Litre on the dyno. Revs well over 8000 RPM!

Turn up your sound!

Old 03-07-2016, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
^ Do you have other theories as to why we are seeing improved performance then?
Randomness..??

Ten tests with/without your upgrade.

Or.

Ten different cars dyno'd with/without your upgrade.

What might the average be?
Old 03-07-2016, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
Yes, we see the most potential from the carb and MFI cars.

Here's the multiple race winning Historika 2.0 Litre on the dyno. Revs well over 8000 RPM!

Turn up your sound!

Damn, that sounds good! What does Historika think of the box Jonny, their race cars are pretty sharp?

Ian
Old 03-08-2016, 12:58 PM
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Hi Ian,

Historika were early adopters of the CDI+ unit. The silver car was one of the first test beds and showed marked improvement to throttle response. The car itself is pretty well known in historic racing - it was the one to beat last season. They have been great in helping us test and tailor the software to a tuner's needs. The only irritation has been that their dyno is manual and doesn't plot graphs!

Historika now fit our unit to all of their rebuilds including one of the real Larousse STs that is being prepared at the moment (two boxes on that one). Pretty exciting to be involved with such legendary machinery!

Parr Porsche will also be running CDI+ units on both their SC race cars this season. I hope to get dyno plots when they go to tune up in a couple of weeks.

Aside from racing cars, we have dyno runs lined up for a stock SC, a 75 CIS car and a 72T on carbs.

It's taken almost three years to get here but it's starting to come together!
Old 03-08-2016, 02:12 PM
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Been on the dyno today with a couple of SC's. The dyno is a Maha and is operated by CCK Historic in the UK.

First up, we have a lovely completely stock 204HP Euro 1982SC with 67000 miles on the clock.



The car put out a very respectable 197 BHP (corrected). The dyno runs are totally repeatable, give or take a small percentage. We ran the stock Bosch ignition which is the thin trace, then our unit which is the thick trace. We made no ignition timing adjustments to our unit at all.

The results were surprising. Above 2400 RPM the traces are almost identical. Below this, however, our CDI+ shows a noticeable increase in torque starting 400 RPM earlier at 2000 RPM. This may go some way to explaining why our units make the cars feel more 'driveable' and quicker on the shift down overtake:



Next up was my similar spec SC but with 964 cams, SSIs, sports exhaust and a custom ignition map in our CDI+ unit.



On the road, my car is noticeably quicker in 0 to 80mph sprint than stock. The interesting thing to note is that the headline BHP is still ~200HP but look at the torque when compared to standard:



An interesting day all round!
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:09 AM
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The dyno graph on the first page look so wonky that it's tough to draw any sort of conclusions. I've done hundreds of pulls on a Dynojet (mostly on my Spec Miata but also a turbo 'busa) and it's important to control for things like coolant and oil temp to get repeatable results. Once you have a procedure dialed in I'm quite impressed at how repeatable it is for back to back tests. Getting the graphing correct, with zoomed in scales to detect subtle changes, is key.
I can easily do some testing if someone wants me to try things on my stock 2.4 MFI car.
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Old 03-10-2016, 12:43 PM
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Hi Matt,

Wonky how? Simply one plot overlaid on another so don't understand what you mean?
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:21 PM
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Like I said, dual spark is probably only truly effective at lower RPM.

Also appears that the lower charge voltage of the Bosch CDI at higher RPM has no adverse effect.

What was done to assure that the spark timing was the same in both cases with regards to the magnetic pick up rotary position. At what point, in both cases, on the pick up waveform did the plug fire?

Last edited by wwest; 03-10-2016 at 02:32 PM..
Old 03-10-2016, 02:19 PM
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Hi Matt,

Wonky how? Simply one plot overlaid on another so don't understand what you mean?
Two things. Peak torque at close to 7000 RPM? I see now that it's a 'race' engine but that's pretty unusual. Torque and HP don't cross as they should, assuming the axis are labeled correctly
And the fact that the 'ticks' you see on the lines make it look like those are individual readings, and then a 'best fit polynomial' is then put through the points. If that is the case, then drawing conclusions based on any data between the points is meaningless.

None of this is definitive. Just a bit wonky.
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Old 03-10-2016, 02:32 PM
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Mr Beau,

I thought you were referring to the first plot I posted just now, I see now you mean the one that started the thread! Yes, it is unusual but it is explained in post #14. We had no involvement with that dyno session but it's the way they do it so I'm told!
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Old 03-10-2016, 03:05 PM
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What was done to assure that the spark timing was the same in both cases with regards to the magnetic pick up rotary position. At what point, in both cases, on the pick up waveform did the plug fire?
As long as the overall timing is the same, who cares? In this case, set at 5 BTDC at idle on an SC, then 25 deg at 6000 RPM.

The timing has (previously) been independently verified on B.S. Motorsport's engine dyno which runs an additional set of timing sensors.
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Old 03-10-2016, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
As long as the overall timing is the same, who cares? In this case, set at 5 BTDC at idle on an SC, then 25 deg at 6000 RPM.

The timing has (previously) been independently verified on B.S. Motorsport's engine dyno which runs an additional set of timing sensors.
Unless you verified that the timing did not shift between the Bosch trials and the CDI+ trial you cannot say the runs were valid.

Again, have the lead engineer who designed your CDI+ explain to you what I mean.
Old 03-11-2016, 10:34 AM
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The list of UK Porsche specialists and engine builders we are working with are amongst the best in the world. We have now added two highly respected US specialists to that list. We trust that these guys are more than capable of independently validating our CDI+ unit.

As far as I'm aware, none of the other ignition manufacturers have provided any data to validate their units, let alone dyno runs specifically on 911s.
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:55 AM
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Can't wait for the dyno results on the 75s. Mike fitz
Old 03-12-2016, 04:18 AM
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The list of UK Porsche specialists and engine builders we are working with are amongst the best in the world. We have now added two highly respected US specialists to that list. We trust that these guys are more than capable of independently validating our CDI+ unit.

As far as I'm aware, none of the other ignition manufacturers have provided any data to validate their units, let alone dyno runs specifically on 911s.
Given that that these dyno charts indicate the CDI+ has no substantive advantage over the Bosch how can you justify the extraordinary purchase price?

The Bosch CDI in '78 Targa worked perfectly >30 years, until the alternator failed, over-charging the battery.... $150 to repair.

Were I in your shoes I think that I would go back to the workbench and come up with an inductive system, inclusive of a transformer coil type. Much wider market.
Old 03-12-2016, 08:28 AM
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Mr West, thanks for the advice but we would have not started this venture without considering our market. The engine research shows that CDI is still the best technology for a 'fuelly' engine with a poor combustion chamber design. The market research shows that people want a plug and play solution.

You are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and it is clear that you will never be one of our customers so why continue to post? Considering that you have never been within a thousand miles of one of our units, I would appreciate if you would not pollute this thread with speculation and mis-information.

It is clear that the dyno charts show that the power is brought in 400 RPM earlier on a standard 3.0 SC. The car with cams and a custom timing map has increased torque from the outset right up to 70mph.

I could list countless testimonials from existing customers and from folks who have units for evaluation.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:29 AM
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Mr West, thanks for the advice but we would have not started this venture without considering our market. The engine research shows that CDI is still the best technology for a 'fuelly' engine with a poor combustion chamber design. The market research shows that people want a plug and play solution.

I think that even you, or as a minimum your lead design engineer, would readily admit that a properly designed inductive system would provide a much heathier, more robust, spark vs ANY CDI system.

Which is quite obviously why Porsche adopted an inductive system post '83. The only real short coming of the '84 and on inductive system is the lack of a DC-DC inverter, 30-40 volts, to more quickly overcome the inductive reactance of the coil.

Why would it be any more difficult to design a "plug-n-play" inductive system vs CDI..?


You are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and it is clear that you will never be one of our customers so why continue to post? Considering that you have never been within a thousand miles of one of our units, I would appreciate if you would not pollute this thread with speculation and mis-information.

Just what "speculation" and "mis-information"..?

It is clear that the dyno charts show that the power is brought in 400 RPM earlier on a standard 3.0 SC. The car with cams and a custom timing map has increased torque from the outset right up to 70mph.

Are you admitting that your market is that narrow? Doesn't exactly meet your "plug-n-play" criteria....

I could list countless testimonials from existing customers and from folks who have units for evaluation.

Yes, but how many have "buyers remorse"..?

And just how often does anyone operate the 911 below 2400 RPM, isn't that down in the range of engine lugging?

Works on a dyno but on pavement, in actual use..??


Last edited by wwest; 03-12-2016 at 11:32 AM..
Old 03-12-2016, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
Mr West, thanks for the advice but we would have not started this venture without considering our market. The engine research shows that CDI is still the best technology for a 'fuelly' engine with a poor combustion chamber design. The market research shows that people want a plug and play solution.

You are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and it is clear that you will never be one of our customers so why continue to post? Considering that you have never been within a thousand miles of one of our units, I would appreciate if you would not pollute this thread with speculation and mis-information.

It is clear that the dyno charts show that the power is brought in 400 RPM earlier on a standard 3.0 SC. The car with cams and a custom timing map has increased torque from the outset right up to 70mph.

I could list countless testimonials from existing customers and from folks who have units for evaluation.
Well put Jonny,

I have not used your CDI, seven years ago I did remove the Bosch from my 1973 MFI 2.7 that was running Pertronix hall effect system for points, and a Nology CDI coil. I used a Daytona-Sensors CD1 kit with matching coil and the overall improvement over the Bosch CDI was amazing and a HUGE improvement in driveablity and performance. I am sure your unit will do the same and perhaps better.

My Bosch CDI was in excellent working order and I did later bench test it extensively......it is and was a strong unit, so I am sure it was a good example.

There is no truth to the statement that "the Bosch CDI is just fine".

WWEST has pulled this crap in CDI and A/C threads for years. It is not constructive it all [maybe a bit entertaining if you are on to him!!!]

Keep up the good work and keep us informed. You are on to something exciting.
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Last edited by dicklague; 03-12-2016 at 10:32 AM..
Old 03-12-2016, 10:29 AM
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Well put Jonny,

I have not used your CDI, seven years ago I did remove the Bosch from my 1973 MFI 2.7 that was running Pertronix hall effect system for points, and a Nology CDI coil. I used a Daytona-Sensors CD1 kit with matching coil and the overall improvement over the Bosch CDI was amazing and a HUGE improvement in driveablity and performance. I am sure your unit will do the same and perhaps better.

My Bosch CDI was in excellent working order and I did later bench test it extensively......it is and was a strong unit, so I am sure it was a good example.

There is no truth to the statement that "the Bosch CDI is just fine".

How many miles do you suppose, aggregately, has the Bosch CDI performed perfectly well, vs ALL of the competitors....??



WWEST has pulled this crap in CDI and A/C threads for years. It is not constructive it all [maybe a bit entertaining if you are on to him!!!]

Keep up the good work and keep us informed. You are on to something exciting.
Old 03-12-2016, 11:45 AM
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