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Quote:
Originally Posted by dicklague View Post
WWEST has pulled this crap in CDI and A/C threads for years.
Is it really necessary to "attack the messenger" and not "the message" (the issue)?
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Old 03-12-2016, 01:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwest View Post
And just how often does anyone operate the 911 below 2400 RPM, isn't that down in the range of engine lugging?

Works on a dyno but on pavement, in actual use..??

That's exactly why I started this thread. I wanted to understand why cars fitted with our units feel better on the road.

Manfred from Germany bought one of our units for his 2.2S last September, here is what he said upon fitment.

Hi jonny

today it was the day… to put a long story short: it took less than an hour to get the car running with cdi+!

what we did: revised injection had been installed and ignition was set up properly. drivng the car made a huge difference due to the revised mfi - great progress. next was unplugging the original hkz (or cdi as you call it) and plugging in the cdi+ unit. turning the key… running! adjusting the rotor of distributor to get the same engine characteristic / zero point at idle as before.

next plugging in the computer gave immediate signal and we played around with some settings… but engine run was so perfect with zero-adjust, that we are now considering a dyno run. due to limited time, i just had a very short test-drive with zero adjust wich was even smoother than before - esp. in the tricky range of 2-3t rpm.


Then , I got this email last month:


thanks a lot for your ongoing updates for the cdi unit - just today i ran my 2.2s since the weater wasn’t too bad at all: after more than two month not driving the car it started immediately and on the 70 km trip for getting someone to the airport düsseldorf it was immediate love again. car is running so smooth and kind of modern (until you start using the breaks).

so i wish i could tell you anything new about your unit - but maybe it is good that i can’t. simply perfect, looking forward to some time later this year. think there will be a longer trip ahead.

have a nice evening and kind regards
manfred
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Old 03-13-2016, 12:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
That's exactly why I started this thread. I wanted to understand why cars fitted with our units feel better on the road.

Manfred from Germany bought one of our units for his 2.2S last September, here is what he said upon fitment.

Hi jonny

today it was the day… to put a long story short: it took less than an hour to get the car running with cdi+!

what we did: revised injection had been installed and ignition was set up properly. drivng the car made a huge difference due to the revised mfi - great progress. next was unplugging the original hkz (or cdi as you call it) and plugging in the cdi+ unit. turning the key… running!

adjusting the rotor of distributor to get the same engine characteristic / zero point at idle as before.

How much did the timing change upon switching to the CDI+....???

This is/was what I was questioning earler. It appears that the CDI+ "triggers" at a different point on the magnetic pick-up waveform vs the Bosch..


next plugging in the computer gave immediate signal and we played around with some settings… but engine run was so perfect with zero-adjust, that we are now considering a dyno run. due to limited time, i just had a very short test-drive with zero adjust wich was even smoother than before - esp. in the tricky range of 2-3t rpm.


Then , I got this email last month:


thanks a lot for your ongoing updates for the cdi unit

"ongoing updates" Learn as you go? Beta testing?

- just today i ran my 2.2s since the weater wasn’t too bad at all: after more than two month not driving the car it started immediately and on the 70 km trip for getting someone to the airport düsseldorf it was immediate love again. car is running so smooth and kind of modern (until you start using the breaks).

so i wish i could tell you anything new about your unit - but maybe it is good that i can’t. simply perfect, looking forward to some time later this year. think there will be a longer trip ahead.

have a nice evening and kind regards
manfred
At least one other upgrade simultaneously, so there's no way to say the CDI+ made any difference whatsoever. Best that can be said is that the CDI+ provided equal capability.

Last edited by wwest; 03-13-2016 at 02:06 PM..
Old 03-13-2016, 01:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
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No, if you read it properly, he says that the installation of a new MFI pump made the first difference running with the original HKZ (Bosch unti).

He goes on to say that the CDI+ made a further improvement 'even smoother' and that it resolved a hesitancy issue between 2000 and 3000 RPM without changing the timing.

I am happy to answer technical questions but the 'nitpicking' is getting tiresome. Why are you so desperately trying to find a hole in our design? I said before that the timing has been independently validated on an engine dyno at B.S.Motorsport.

'Ongoing updates' refer to the fact that our units can have their firmware upgraded. We recently released an update that can operate the MFI fuel pump cut off in place of the original 'speed sensor' which is another common to fail component. We release firmware updates through our website. We can do custom and special request firmware too.

Please, let us post up our dyno plots here as was the intention of this thread!
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Last edited by Jonny H; 03-13-2016 at 03:56 PM..
Old 03-13-2016, 02:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
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Light throttle and less than 3000 rpm equals quiet car in the morning.

Lugging is when you pull a long hill in too high of a gear with lots of throttle.

Not everyone wants to be that straight-pipe Harley guy. Sometimes low rpm drivability is very useful.
Old 03-13-2016, 03:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #45 (permalink)
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Some things don't show on a standard rolling road power run as the speed is brought up slowly for the plot. You can't easily plot improvements to throttle stabs for example.

When we get back on the engine dyno, we are hoping to show/prove the better engine 'pickup'. Setup of this test on the dyno is beyond my knowledge but Neil Bainbridge at B.S.Motorsport says he can setup a particular type of run to show it.

That's the whole point of working with these guys, they know their onions!
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Old 03-13-2016, 03:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysocal911 View Post
Before making conclusions, i.e. increases of almost 20 ft-lbs of torque at some RPM,
additional independent tests with an observer, needs to be done in the U.S and not by a car hobbyist
done in the US? the land of optimistic dyno sheets? please..
Old 03-13-2016, 03:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
done in the US? the land of optimistic dyno sheets? please..
Like you Aussies are any better?

Who cares how optimistic, or pessimistic for that matter, the dyno is as long as the same dyno is used. What we care about here is the difference, not the final number.
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Old 03-13-2016, 04:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
No, if you read it properly, he says that the installation of a new MFI pump made the first difference running with the original HKZ (Bosch unti).

He goes on to say that the CDI+ made a further improvement 'even smoother' and that it resolved a hesitancy issue between 2000 and 3000 RPM without changing the timing.

I am happy to answer technical questions but the 'nitpicking' is getting tiresome.

Why are you so desperately trying to find a hole in our design?

Keep looking for a "cherry" but keep coming up with holes.

Manfred's statement impiles, strongly, that he had to adjust the rotor timing post switching to the CDI+.. Any engineer worth their salt would not question, understand the need for this yet when asked you ignore the point.


I said before that the timing has been independently validated on an engine dyno at B.S.Motorsport.

'Ongoing updates' refer to the fact that our units can have their firmware upgraded.

Exactly!


We recently released an update that can operate the MFI fuel pump cut off in place of the original 'speed sensor' which is another common to fail component. We release firmware updates through our website. We can do custom and special request firmware too.

Please, let us post up our dyno plots here as was the intention of this thread!
Old 03-14-2016, 09:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #49 (permalink)
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Any aftermarket ignition that can provide electronic advance works by 'holding off' the spark with relation to the trigger. As we are triggering from the orignal points/VR this requires that the trigger point be brought forward in time. Since time travel is not yet possible, the way this is achieved is by rotating the distributor more in the advance direction. You are not altering the timing, you are just moving the trigger point. E.g. If you move the trigger point forward 10 degs and then hold off for 10 degs of time, you get zero advance.

There is another reason for having an 'early' trigger point. It allows us to calibrate the timing by compensating for any delay caused by the input trigger circuit . The compensation factor can be adjusted to dial in the timing. The Bosch CDI cannot do this which causes the timing accuracy to decrease with RPM.

Why anyone would regard being able to download features via firmware as a bad thing is a complete puzzle to me? Ever bought a smartphone?

As I said before the end to end timing has been validated on an engine dyno with a completely separate set of timing sensors.

Over the last couple of days, Neil Bainbridge at BS Motorsport has run back to back tests of a Bosch CDI vs our CDI+. The tests have been conducted on a full engine test cell in a controlled environment. The test cell is the same one used by the Hyundai WRC team.

I will be posting the test report up soon but we are very pleased with the results.
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Old 03-14-2016, 01:28 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #50 (permalink)
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Just to add a couple of positive points in Johnny's favour, Neil Bainbridge of BS Motorsport is a particularly well regarded 911 engine builder over this side of the pond. He wouldn't use this tech if it didn't give some advantage. The same can be said for Historika, Google them and see the quality of what they build and race. Neither of these would use anything with a hint of snake oil and given that the product is being taken up by well regarded organisations over your side I guess there must be something in this.

No affiliation here

Ian
Old 03-14-2016, 01:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #51 (permalink)
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Our current list of partners:

UK:

BS Motorsport

Canford Classics - Classic Porsche Restoration & Parts Refurbishment

Porsche Sales - Historika

http://www.parr-uk.co.uk

Paul Stephens | Leading Porsche Specialists

US: (tbc - at evaluation stage)

TRE Motorsports

Home Page 911 Design - 911 Design
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Old 03-14-2016, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
Any aftermarket ignition that can provide electronic advance works by 'holding off' the spark with relation to the trigger.

"..Any..." No, only electronic ignitions that are microprocessor based. But even those mostly use the previous plug firing "trigger" to pre-set the timing for the upcoming one. Simple computation since RPM doesn't change enough between firings to be problematic

As we are triggering from the orignal points/VR this requires that the trigger point be brought forward in time. Since time travel is not yet possible, the way this is achieved is by rotating the distributor more in the advance direction. You are not altering the timing, you are just moving the trigger point. E.g. If you move the trigger point forward 10 degs and then hold off for 10 degs of time, you get zero advance.

You are implying that your microprocessor instruction execution rate is what requires 10 degrees of "advance warning".

There is another reason for having an 'early' trigger point. It allows us to calibrate the timing by compensating for any delay caused by the input trigger circuit .

Not if the timing for the upcoming spark was computed based on the previous trigger.

The compensation factor can be adjusted to dial in the timing. The Bosch CDI cannot do this which causes the timing accuracy to decrease with RPM.

No need, the Bosch CDI timing is not a function of instruction execution timing delays.

Why anyone would regard being able to download features via firmware as a bad thing is a complete puzzle to me? Ever bought a smartphone?

Apples/Oranges... If the firmware design is SOLID from the get-go there is no need for firmware updates. CDI+, how to make a simple product more complex.

As I said before the end to end timing has been validated on an engine dyno with a completely separate set of timing sensors.

Yes, but you just admitted that the timing MUST be adjusted, corrected, when switching to the CDI+.

Over the last couple of days, Neil Bainbridge at BS Motorsport has run back to back tests of a Bosch CDI vs our CDI+. The tests have been conducted on a full engine test cell in a controlled environment. The test cell is the same one used by the Hyundai WRC team.

I will be posting the test report up soon but we are very pleased with the results.
Why do you expect that additional dyno testing will yield any more information above those already posted...?
Old 03-14-2016, 05:55 PM
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Johnny H,

I have no affiliation with you but want to congratulate you on laying bare in this forum the journey undertaken with your products for our old cars and for your patience in dealing with the constant naysayers attempts to undermine you.

I have personaly dealt with three of the partners you list above and have read very good things about the rest. These partners represent some of the most most respected and experienced companies in the UK today!

Wwest, you are infamous in this board for your constant attacks against those you choose to disagree with. Please give us all a break and move on! Or better still seeing as you are such an expert, spend the time, money and energy on building a better product and lay it all bare in here too!

Cheers
Bill
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:24 PM
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Ok, my patience is wearing a bit thin but I will attempt explain, again, why we move the input trigger point.

Mr West is describing a 'predictive timing' scheme whereby the ECU tries to 'guess' when the next spark should occur. At the most simplistic level, this is done by making an assumption that the next spark will occur in the same time interval as the last timing gap measured. More complex systems, use a predictive algorithm which needs to be 'tuned' as most are based on a (sort of) PID contoller.

Predictive systems cannot cope well with rapid changes in RPM. They tend to lag and then overshoot. They also do not work very well if there are not a sufficient number of triggers in the engine rotation to calculate the time interval and that is why these systems typically require the use of a toothed timing wheel (more triggers per rotation). As our system uses the points/VR, we have only six trigger points. We have tried out a predictive scheme but the results were poor. The engine idle was unsteady and the pickup was unresponsive.

The only way to guarantee that the timing is accurate is to move the trigger point forward in time so you are always calculating a hold off ahead of the cylinder you want to fire. It isn't adjusting changing the ignition timing, it's moving the trigger point. This is no different in fact to fitting a Pertronix where you have to re-time the engine.

The timing compensation is primarily concerned with dialing out any delay caused by input filtering. Nothing to do with the microprocessor.

The firmware updates are about adding features. Since the product was launched we have added:

1) Tacho smoothing
2) Distributor input smoothing
3) MFI fuel pump cut-off control
4) Configuration of interval between dual sparks
5) Configurable number of triggers before first spark
6) Programmable output / shift light control. Inversion etc.

None of those affect the main operation of the unit and many customers are still on version 1.0.

We are looking at being able to read a MAP sensor from an input and also driving an additional fuel injector from an output.
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Old 03-15-2016, 03:06 AM
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Firmware = software. Got it! British = US language thing.

Seems like the cdi+ is a lot more than just a Bosch cdi replacement. It is being developed further, to do more. All the while being plug and play compatible and looks original.

Still can't figure out why this product is controversial. Price is what a small specialty company needs to charge to make the product available, feed their families, and put some profits in the bank.
Old 03-15-2016, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by VFR750 View Post
Firmware = software. Got it! British = US language thing.
No, not really. The British and Americans are on the same page in regards to what is firmware and what is software. Look here:

Difference Between Software and Firmware | Difference Between | Software vs Firmware
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #57 (permalink)
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Let's clear a few things up:

'Firmware' is generally used to describe code that is 'embedded' in a device, but yes at the end of the day it is still software

Things may be cheaper in the US but in the UK right now (all prices before tax and shipping):

Permatune. £494
MSD 6AL-2 + blaster coil . £505
Original Bosch (used). £400 - 600
Classic Retrofit. £795 - £995
Elf ignition. £900 - 1200
Porsche Original OEM Bosch. £2400

All our units are made in the UK, hand assembled, soak tested and setup per customer requirements in house.
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:04 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #58 (permalink)
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Back in the day firmware was software burned into fusible link PROMs. To change it you took the chip out , threw it away and put another one in.

Today the definition is pretty nebulous.

EDIT: Downloading into a micro controllers flash memory isn't a feature that requires extra work, it is just the way it is done nowadays.
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Last edited by rick-l; 03-15-2016 at 08:28 AM..
Old 03-15-2016, 08:20 AM
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Ok. Now I understand. Thanks!
Old 03-15-2016, 08:59 AM
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