Front Bushing Advice Needed

[Lake Guy]

I need some advice on the front bushings on my '84 911 Targa. I'm getting ready to send the car for paint and I need to finish some things in the front suspension before it goes. I'm just not sure how far to go with replacing parts. I need to pull one of the A arms to do a weld repair. After I get the parts back together I want to get a wheel alignment before sending to the painter. And, I only want to do the alignment once. I'm wondering if I should just replace all the bushings and shock inserts now while it's easy before the alignment or maybe I'm just wasting money and time. The car is new to me last spring but it seems to drive fine. I've read that the bushings will show their wear visually (I don't have much experience with this stuff). When I look at these they look OK to me. What do you guys think? Car has 184K miles and I have not PO history. So, for all I know, these could have been replaced a few years ago or maybe their original. Thoughts?

Mark

[universeman]

I did my sway bar bushings recently (82 targa.) They looked fine to me visually -- until I pulled them out. The rubber was hard, brittle, and cracked compared to the softness of the new ones. I can definitely see the same rubber in your sway bar bushings, esp the next-to-last pic above.

Your a-arm bushings look like mine. Visually they seem OK to me (and so do mine.) However they don't look new or recent (remember they're closed up inside that cover unlike the SB bushings, so they shouldn't wear visually as quickly.) My guess is that your bushings and mine are both due for replacement. Unfortunately it's hard to tell unless you get the rubber out of the car and hold it in your hand, how hard it is/was. Yours look centered still in the arm (mine do, too) but that doesn't mean they're not hardened and due for replacement.

If it were me, I'd get all the suspension parts refreshed, do a home alignment with strings, drive it to the paint shop, get it painted, and then do a professional suspension setup, after it's painted.

[aoncurly]

+1. I just went through this with my 81SC. I would agree that you should refresh your all your bushings, including the rear bushings as well. You can go to Elephant Racing's web page to see what bushings you need. I also had my struts and shocks replaced at the same time, installed Turbo Tie Rods, and a bump-steer kit, lowered (actually raised as my car was a tad lower than "Euro") and aligned. Now, it rides and drives like a new car. Big difference.

My bushings looked fine as well. But when they removed, they were still soft, but a few were ovaled from the rubber sagging over time and storage. You could not see that either.

[Jdub]

You mention you are not sure how far to go with replacing parts. Ideally you would replace all rubber, so the ball joints, A-arm bushings, and sway bar bushings. Consider at this time to put in the "Turbo" tie rods as well. Inserts for sure with fresh rubber donuts at the top mount.

Now of course you should also do the rear suspension as well! Ouch.

Once I determined rust was not an issue on my '78, I focused on everything other than the paint (Minerva Blue with some dents). The suspension refresh was AMAZING - this combined with fresh Potenzas and a 7"/9" set of Fuchs transformed the car. Point is, I thought it was fine until I returned it to "as new" condition.

[Reiver]

The front A arm bushing always 'looks' good as it is not really a weight bearing area...our rear bushing carries the weight and will be ovaled out. 30 year old rubber is way past its threshold of proper functioning.

[Lake Guy]

Thanks for the comments guys, I was feeling like I should just get this work done but you know, always good to get some feed back. This is a road car that my wife drives as well so I'm going to want to with rubber parts for comfort and noise, right? I might as well do the shock inserts as well so what brands do you recommend for these? Our host sells several types.

[sugarwood]

What difference will one notice when he replaces his front bushings?
How exactly does the car drive differently after the change?
How much of this is placebo effect ?

[Reiver]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

What difference will one notice when he replaces his front bushings?
How exactly does the car drive differently after the change?
How much of this is placebo effect ?

Well for one he'll get his sway bars working...his are obviously loose and they can look 'tight' and not be...you'll see the dif when you attempt remounting the bars.
The a arm bushings will hold the wheel set properly (camber etc.) and give a tighter ride but it is subtle. I think he'll get the most out of rebushing his sways in this case...flatter cornering.

[Monza_dh]

I would suggest to do it all right or wait until there is a more critical impending event. Maybe the weld repair is just that.

I would agree with the above that If you do the bushings I would also do front inserts if you need them, shock mount bushings, sway mount bushings and turbo tie rods while you are in there. Once your alignment is set you wont have to do much for many miles and the car will be transformed, trust me....

[BFT3.2]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

What difference will one notice when he replaces his front bushings?
How exactly does the car drive differently after the change?
How much of this is placebo effect ?

Drive up north a hour and I'll let ya test out a before and after. Did my entire suspension last Fall/Spring. If we're lucky they won't salt the roads for a couple more weeks.

[A horse with no name]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

What difference will one notice when he replaces his front bushings?
How exactly does the car drive differently after the change?
How much of this is placebo effect ?

Good questions...I also have a 1986 Carrera with 75K on it. It drove very well but due to it's age I decided to replace all of the front and rear bushings. They looked OK, but after the front re&re only, I found quite a difference. In the front end I had also replaced the ball joint's, updated to Turbo tie rods, including of course the sway bar bushings. Keep in mind, that when this is done, they will drive as when new. The car will turn with only a slight movement of the steering wheel. Over rougher pavement it took away any suspension sounds that it had. I did this in the spring.

For a winter job, I am at the moment replacing everything in the rear suspension except for the shocks. I now have the spring bars, including all of their nuts, bolts, washers, outer bushing covers ready to be anodized. When completed the complete suspension will be as it was when it came out of the factory. The car is now 30 yrs old, and now that I have seen both of the front and rear rubber bushings when out, I would recommend changing them due to wear, including their age. I used Elephant Racing's parts.

Is it a 'must do'?...Not really unless your car is doing a little wandering and that you don't drive it like a track car. There is though a definite change in how it handles. Everything is very tight.

Just my .02 cents worth.

[impactbumper]

If you have time and finances allow you replace all bushings front and rear. Repair/replace a-arms. Look it is not a job you will do so often, perhaps the last time ever on that car so get it over with. You will fall in love with it again. Car could have bad paint but that won't affect how it drives. But if the suspension is tired it becomes less Porsche everyday


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[Lake Guy]

thanks again for all the advice fellow Pelicans! I've ordered all the bushings and shock inserts for the front (which is torn apart now and needs to get put back together). I'll do the same for the rear next.

[Reiver]

How do your torsion bars look? Asking because of the rust I see on most components. If they have a bit of smooth surface rust snad it off and paint them....if you have pitting then you need to make a decision. A pit on a torsion bar is a stress fracture waiting to happen.
If they are good grease them up before reassembly. Used 19 mm bars in nice shape go for 100/150 so look around...some are on the for sale section (not me)...just no pitting aye.

[Lake Guy]

thanks for the tip Reiver, I haven't take the torsion bars off yet so I don't know. I need to so some reading I guess. But, if you didn't say anything I may have skipped this step so now I know.

Mark.

[Jdub]

If you have the garage space, a jack and four stands or better, you can absolutely do this yourself and save a bundle. Costs would be one or two tools and toughest work is undoing the ball joint interference fit and the rear spring plate bolts both on plate and holding to the body (careful with that breaker bar here Eugene!).

DO NOT go cheap on the parts - there are known crappy brands that will make you cry when you have to R&R them down the line. Be especially picky on the tie rods - there is one brand whose rubber bellows blow out in no time at all.

I moved to 21 / 26 t-bars mostly to handle stiffer Bilsteins and added weight of the 7/9" Fuchs. Many would recommend a heavier rear t-bar.

Everything you could ever need to know about doing this is in the archives of this BBS - so much wealth of information it is really staggering.

[chrismorse]

As long as you are in there...

check the pads, caliper condition, brake hoses, disc thickness. Pack/replace front wheel bearings

See if the rack boots are intact and if you have any play in the rack, the odds are that the unit has not been serviced since new!!!

If you have any t bar pitting or wear, have a chat with the guys at Rennsport or Chuck at Elephant Racing about the pro's and con's of a T bar change.

You may need to clean and repaint the suspension parts, (Por 15, or powder coat).

While the wheels and tires are off, clean them up and give them a good look for any signs of damage/cracks.

Clean and check the body at the suspension attachment points for cracks/rust.

Good luck,
chris

[enzoducoing]

Keep in mind that your car is a sports car and left the factory with a suspension settings capable of even more than the great 3.2 is able to pull. When you replace all the rubber on the suspension and refresh with new shocks, it will feel like the day it left Stuttgart, in other words, fantastic!. New ball joints,new shocks and new stock rubber all around is what I'd recommend. Anything less than that, is a waste of your cars capabilities, anything more than that (using the racing stuff) is useless for a street car and a waste of money (ask me how I know). Upgrades? I'd only recommend turbo tie rods. As for bigger T bars and brakes, those are only necessary on something like a 3.6 conversion, where you need to compensate for more weight and power, or on the cars who see double duty as weekend track tools.
Hope this helps
Cheers
MD

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Jdub

DO NOT go cheap on the parts - there are known crappy brands that will make you cry when you have to R&R them down the line.
Be especially picky on the tie rods - there is one brand whose rubber bellows blow out in no time at all.

Can you just identify the brands? If they sue you, we will chip in for your lawyer.

[Reiver]

From personal experience I wouldn't touch any URO rubber products and that means bushings...find someone that makes them to the proper size and shore hardness.