How do longhoods differ from mid/SC/Carrera ?

[sugarwood]

I was reading the article titled "What is steering feel?" in the Nov. 2015 Panorama.
Made me wonder in what other ways early 911's are different from the later versions. Weight increases are self-evident.

[djpateman]

Just look at the rim & tire width increases year over year. 1967 911S with 4.5" Fuchs; 1968 > 5.5"; 1969 > 6"; RS > 7" and so on. As the tires get wider, the steering feel gets heavier.

[NYNick]

The early ones spun and almost killed you before you had a chance to say "oh s#*T!"

The later ones spun and almost killed you after you said "oh s#*T!"

[bgyglfr]

I think some of the difference is the direct mechanical input and feedback to the driver. As the later cars were developed electronics, weight, amenities etc all interfere with the direct mechanical connection. As 911s "progressed" the cars became farther distanced from the driving experience. It does make a difference. I've owned everything from a 68 to a 86 and I will say the 86 was a dissapointing experience when compared to my earlier cars. Even when compared to SCs and middies.

One thing to keep in mind. When later cars are modded/ hot rodded, they tend to pick up some of the early car characteristics.

The "Oh S**T factor of early cars had more to do with tires than the cars themselves. New tires make the early cars much much more forgiving when pushing the limits.

[sugarwood]

In what ways did you feel your ''86 so so much different from the SC ?

[gamin]

I have a 70 and a 88. Huge differences in driving feel. Steering is light and fast in the 70 where in the 88 it is heavier and slower. Because the 88 is heavier it feels that way. The steering ratio is slower in the 88 probably to make it less heavy. Power brakes on the 88 to help stop the extra weight. Motronic fuel injection means easy starting and no points and timing adjustments. Power windows mean I don't have to crank up the windows. I won't mention air conditioning. All this is good but lessens the experience.
And all this refinement and the safety stuff all adds weight and just plain changes the whole feel not just the steering. It's still good but different. Long hoods are raw very basic sports cars with minimal sound proofing and with all the feedback sounds and smells they just put a big smile on your face when you drive them.
Love them both for different reasons.

[Bill Verburg]

All 911 that I have documentation for, '72-89 use the same ZF rack
ratio 17.78
turns lock to lock ~3
frictional moment 8-14kpcm

993 have the fastest @16.48, ~2.46 t l to l
964 the slowest 18.48 2.81 t lock to l limited by adjustable stops

all are mounted the same, al have the same alignment and height specs, at least for RoW models

930 have rose joint rather than rubber in the tie rods which helps tighten the steering

the change in feel '72- 89 is 99% due to wheels, tires and chassis weight

the p/s cars, 964 up of course have a very different feel

[jlynch1960]

At least $25,000 or more depending on condition and color. The early S cars, forget it.

[dad911]

I've owned '71, '73, '77, '84, '87, '90, '92 models, and a 993cup and a 964 cup. All track driven. Frankly, some when purchased had a terrible 'steering feel'. However, by the time I went through them and tightened up worn bushing(s), bump steer, and a good 'performance' alignment, the steering felt great.

Most of it is in alignment and worn/damaged parts.

I've also had a few cars that PO lowered too much, without addressing strut travel & bump steer. Raised a little they handled great.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by nynick

the early ones spun and almost killed you before you had a chance to say "oh s#*t!"

the later ones spun and almost killed you after you said "oh s#*t!"

:d

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by NYNick

The early ones spun and almost killed you before you had a chance to say "oh s#*T!"

The later ones spun and almost killed you after you said "oh s#*T!"

Bwa ha ha ha.

How true.

[Mick_D]

I think BIll is right, when it comes to steering and wheel widths. When they added power steering in 1989, they also changed the negative scrub ratio to zero, which changes the feedback the driver experiences and makes the steering more forgiving. Later models ( not sure if it was 993 or later) actually had a positive scrub ratio.

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

All 911 that I have documentation for, '72-89 use the same ZF rack
ratio 17.78
turns lock to lock ~3
frictional moment 8-14kpcm

993 have the fastest @16.48, ~2.46 t l to l
964 the slowest 18.48 2.81 t lock to l limited by adjustable stops

all are mounted the same, al have the same alignment and height specs, at least for RoW models

930 have rose joint rather than rubber in the tie rods which helps tighten the steering

the change in feel '72- 89 is 99% due to wheels, tires and chassis weight

the p/s cars, 964 up of course have a very different feel

[javadog]

I'll add one thing to what Bill said. The alignment settings, particularly the caster, will have an impact on how the steering feels. The intended specs aren't much different from one year to the next but most people focus more on camber and toe and caster isn't that big a deal to them. It wouldn't surprise me to see two 911s with a fair difference in caster.

JR

[bgyglfr]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

In what ways did you feel your ''86 so so much different from the SC ?

The 86 felt very sluggish relative to my SC and my middie. The car was stock. I know a lot of 3.2 owners chip their cars. I'm sure that makes a big difference. That and gearing. My SC and my 3.2 car had 8/31 R&P and my middie had 7/31. My middie felt closest to an early car as far as feel.

My comments were based on mostly stock cars although all of my early cars had 205 width tires in front. The steering feedback in my experience has been definitely related to weight.

[wayner]

All the talk about steering, what about engine characteristics?

To me an air cooled Porsche should always be a zippy high revving thing

Over the years the stroke just got longer and longer...

[72doug2,2S]

One is heavy and one is light. I used to be 208 at my heaviest, and at my lightest I was 172. I had far less agility at 208. That is what they feel like, specific reasons are likely above.

[sugarwood]

Anyone know offhand the curb weight of the pre-72 vs SC vs 3.2 ?

[Canada Kev]

Originally Posted by bgyglfr

The 86 felt very sluggish relative to my SC and my middie. The car was stock. I know a lot of 3.2 owners chip their cars. I'm sure that makes a big difference. That and gearing. My SC and my 3.2 car had 8/31 R&P and my middie had 7/31. My middie felt closest to an early car as far as feel.

My comments were based on mostly stock cars although all of my early cars had 205 width tires in front. The steering feedback in my experience has been definitely related to weight.

Interesting. Other than the engine and brake size, there really is no difference between the SCs and early Carreras given the same options and country of origin. The weight disparity between them could be offset by what you had to eat for lunch. I'd likely attribute any perceived differences to specific car variables like tires and wheel alignment. After the 25 to thirty years they've been on the road, there is likely a considerable difference in feel depending on each vehicle's history.

I know a well tuned 3.0 is often said to feel a bit more sprightly than a stock 3.2. I don't have any stats to compare the performance, such as acceleration, between the two of them side by side. That would be a cool thing to do...

[ClickClickBoom]

As an owner of a Middie('75) and a Carerra('84), the differences come primarily from tires and set up. My middie had stock steering rack, turbo tie rods and Falken Azenis 205/55/16ish tires, and was absolutely delightful in the twisties. My Carerra has a reduced ratio steering rack, the same turbo tie rods and as of last week Falken Azenis 215/50/17 tires on the front and 245/50/17s wrapped around a set of 7 and 9" Euromeisters. The Carerra feels like it has power steering and grips like a gekko on a stucco wall, even in the wet. It feels like my 75 did, except it for the 100 Hp difference in power. I do have a powerful taste for 0 toe in on the fronts and slightly less caster than stock, camber remains stock. The Carrera is slightly nervous in the triple digit speed range, but since that time is absolutely minimal, I will stay with the slightly more twitchy steering.
So set it up like you want, for the type of feel you like and go with it and smile! The adjustability, of these car lends allow plenty of options, so tuning is possible.

[bgyglfr]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

I know a well tuned 3.0 is often said to feel a bit more sprightly than a stock 3.2. I don't have any stats to compare the performance, such as acceleration, between the two of them side by side. That would be a cool thing to do...

This is most likely the difference in my perception. The 3.2 injection always felt delayed relative even to cis cars. That's was my point about the chip changes. I've never driven a chipped 3.2. I would be interested to see how that effects responsiveness.

The engine absolutely a major factor in all of these cars characteristics. I tend to lean toward building short stroke motors for my early cars just because that's what "feels right" in them.