As someone who has previously owned the Andial splitter, I think Sal's solution looks superior. The Andial splitter required you to cut into your DME harness and run another wire from the DME to the engine compartment.

As I read the thread, I was thinking, "That Dave guy sure sounds like Loren." I didn't realize that Loren had been banned.

Steve,

Yes I plan to make a few of these as needed, my plan is to supply a complete solution with per-built harness that you just plug in to the existing 964 coil pack.
Or I can supply the circuit and the 2 connectors with pins for the 964 modules and you build the harness following the above wiring diagram.

Basically you just source the entire 964 coil package with the 2 coils mounted in the bracket with modules installed on the bracket. I supply a pre-built harness with the circuit built into the harness and you just wire up 4 wires in the engine bay.

All this started from a few customers I'm doing MAF systems for that had twin plugged motors and they could not find the andial splitter. I basically decided to build a simpler and easier to wire up solution. With this approach you don't hack into the orginal factory harness. I also follow this same approach with my MAF solution, no harnesses are disturbed.

Just give me a bit more time for final testing and then I'll build up a few kits. I already have parts sourced to build 10 complete kits.

Ingo,

Thanks for the support on this project! It was very nice of you to exchange info about how the 964 DME fires the modules.

Once again thanks.

As for price I'm still working on something fair. Please consider that solutions like this don't sell by the 100s, I'd be lucky to sell 20. I do this out of passion for the cars and the owners. If you ever assembled any electronics you know it's not easy to build that tinny board. It takes me about 4 hours to build the entire solution. I had to source all the parts including connectors and then build the circuit, package the circuit then build the harness. It's certainly not going to sell for $75 I can barely source all the parts for that price. Even if I gave away the full schematic most folks don't have the skills or the time to pull all the parts together to build just 1 of these.

Most likely price point will be around $600 for the complete harness, you just wire up the 4 wires and your done. Or about $300 for the connectors, terminal block and the circuit then you build the harness.

Each and every product I make is hand built and tested by me personally.

My goal was to build a simple to use design. This design installs in a fraction of the time it takes to install the Andial design.

I guess I misunderstood what your solution is, i.e. You do require two modules plus
the inverter circuit, the terminal strip, and a special harness. So the cost would be
about $600 excluding the cost of the modules, right? That's about what the cost
was for the NLA Andial inverter module.

Well, for those that don't have another circuit alternative, it does provide a solution.
It'll most likely be available thru Pelican Parts at the $600 price, right?

How is the marketing for this product your responsibility? Do you work for or represent Pelican Parts? Just maybe I've had conversations with Pelican staff that you may not be aware of, has that ever crossed your mind?

Having it available thru Pelican Parts makes it convenient for Pelican Parts buyers
to easily purchase the product when they purchase other Porsche parts they may
need. Kinda like one-stop-shopping as found on other websites, especially since
the product has now been promoted on Pelican Parts.

Hey, I found a really neat feature on this forum:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist
I did not know the forum supported an ignore list, very handy :)

Spent the day packaging up the entire coil pack as a self contained unit, here it is:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1454808981.jpg

Everything is pre-wired and ready to go you just wire up:
- Ground
- Power Constant
- Power switched, from existing coil's '+' (black wire)
- Trigger, from existing coil's '-' (green line)

I decided to even mount the terminal strip onto the self contained unit. This makes it super simple to install. All lugs are soldered and shrink tubing sealed. This first unit was created from an old 964 harness. The next units will have completely hand made harnesses.

I'm very please with the simplicity of the setup, very easy for the end user to install and have running in 15 minutes or less since the unit is fully assembled in a neat tight package.

Next I'll install in car and take some pics of the mount up.

Hi Sal,

Firstly, good job! Secondly, welcome to the world of low volume bespoke manufacture. As you've discovered, it's a numbers game. Development hours and build time, cost of parts and of course profit all form the price. It is amazing how many folks don't understand that. They see a few components and wires and in their heads compare it to some mass produced 'equivalent' then baulk at the price. Fear not though, others will appreciate the effort and will buy.

With that in mind and seeing your installation, personally I would re-package the product. Make a single PCB that integrates the screw terminals or better still, has an automotive connector. House that in a waterproof box with well thought out mounting points to make the install as easy as possible. It looks as though the whole thing would fit in a box about cigarette packet size. Let the installer do the wiring or offer this as a separate service.

If you can get to the stage where you are just making a PCB and putting it into a box, you can reduce the man hours and make your job a bit easier!

Good luck with the testing!

I have a PCB already designed, trouble is I have to cut at least 100 boards.
Your idea of using an automotive connector is something I may consider, I have a decent supply of Weather-Pack connectors and the next unit may be done using that approach. With a connector you'll need to cut the lugs off the stock harness that goes to the coil, not a big deal as the lugs could always be put back on at a later time if need be.

As for price, your spot on! Building limited market solutions such as these is expensive. It takes hours to build and test every unit, people look at it and say, I can build that, till you actually attempt it a lot of people have no idea how hard it is.

I do think that a package that's easy to install with very little labor time has to be worth something more than a package that takes hours to assemble and more hours to install. I know some folks like to do the work and for those I can supply just the circuit with connectors for the BIM Ignitors, then they build the harness.

Thanks for the support

One more detail:
The 964 bracket that holds the coils will not fit into the Carrera engine bay as is, you don't have enough room to mount it like it is mounted in the 964. I took the bracket and flipped it 180 degrees then bent the bracket so that the coils are mounted with the bottoms against the firewall. It's a decent alternative for fitting two coils into that tight space between the fuel filter and the fuse panel tin. I did not have to manufacture any extra metal other than the bar that the terminal strip is mounted on. I'll post pics soon.

Agreed. Great work on this project! Im with Jonny re the packaging. Maybe a PCB mount Deutsch connector or pigtail in a potted case. It would be super clean looking.

http://www.te.com/content/dam/te-com/documents/industrial-and-commercial-transportation/global/DEUTSCH%20Product%20Catalog.pdf

David

In car final packaging!

Remove the old single coil, install the mounting 1/2 of the bracket and prep the lugs onto the stock coil harness:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455151198.jpg

Take the other 1/2 of the bracket, without the coils but with the harness and electronics all pre-built and fasten it to the mounting bracket but do not tighten the bolt holding the 2 halfs together yet.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455151313.jpg

Now slip the coils into the bracket and wire the coils to the harness. Then wire the factory coil harness to the terminal strip. Then just wire power and ground wires, these are already pre-wired to the terminal strip.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455151408.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455151425.jpg

Finally install the water splash shield, notice how all the electronic including the terminal strip is tucked behind the splash shield.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455151487.jpg

This twin coil install is very clean, tightly and simple.
That's it your done, now just go drive!

Here's a video of the coils running in car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqVj736-6oY&feature=youtu.be

High five for Sal

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455133362.jpg

Kevin,

Next is some heavy load testing. But I think the design is solid.

Thanks.

I have had time to really test the circuit in car and it works perfectly under all conditions. Have even done extensive hi load WOT testing. Circuit works very well, next I'm sending it out to the first customer I built this for and he'll be using it in a twin plugged 3.2L within the next few months.

I can easily build more as needed, just the circuit or the complete solution with the harness as well. I prefer to build the entire solution with harness for the first few that go out.

Here's my 2nd version of this twin coil solution. Just changed the mounting of the treminal strip, relay and circuit can. This one I created the entire harness by hand and relocated the components a bit. It's exactly the same as the prior one but just different engine bay mount up. The coil pack also does not need to be disassembled to install it.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1460031950.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1460031963.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1460031979.jpg

So once the system is installed (along with a 964 dizzy) a buyer would most likely contact Steve Wong for a revised chip that has less advance than the stock chip, right?

Bob

Or one would work with Sal as he knows just as much if not more

I was going to say what Ingo said....Sal is known as a highly effective tuner of Motronic Carerras's and 964's. Not knocking SW.

I do MAF conversion on these twin plug cars all the time. I have several solutions that are far superior to just a chip. PM me I'll try to help best I can to meet your engine needs.

UPDATE: if you use my twin plug solution on a pre 84 tub please read!

I just did a twin plug module for an older (pre 84) car with a 3.2L transplant and my twin plug ignition module had engine run on issues. It simply kept running even after the key was was turned off. The issue was because the charging light did not have a diode in-line, we simply added a 1n4001 diode in-line with the charging light and issue was resolved. The 84-89 Carrera has this diode built into the harness but the older cars do not.

Without the diode the relay in my ignition module will not de-activate. It's also worth noting that neither will the DME relay! The only reason the engine stopped in it's single single plug configuration is because the coil lost it's power and the small trickle current through the charging light is not sufficient to allow the hi current needs of the coil to charge so the engine stops. But in my circuit I have a 40Amp relay the feeds the ignition modules and it takes very little current to keep that relay engaged. I mention this because others may see similar behaviors with other aftermarket ignition solutions.

Hi Sal,

Very cool work here. I sent a PM... be happy to purchase your twin plug splitter for a 3.4 coming together this spring.

Best,
Anna

I've got Sal's twin plug setup and MAF conversion. (I've previously had the Andial twin plug setup.)
I'm very happy with both and I haven't even had a chance to tune it.

Lest you think I'm one of those, "I spent money on it, I've convinced myself it must be good." type of guys: I'm an engineer, I've hacked the DME tables on these cars a bit, I've built multiple 911 motors, etc. and I'm very skeptical of any performance claims. Every time I talk to Sal I'm impressed by the knowledge and thought he's brought to bear on these projects.

I got my twin plug running in the Fall and didn't have a chance to dyno tune it but I will let you know what I find out when I do.

My advice with building the 3.2L single plug into a twin plug is to pay very close attention to cam selection and compression ratio. If you do not want to calculate these complex calculations you can simply copy the 964 motor recipe but as a 3.4L. Just use the 964 factory cam and get the compression ratio in the 10.8:1 to 11.2:1 range, this is the same target compression for the 964 motor and the factory already did the calcs for you! Very often I see twin plug motors with not enough static compression for the cam choice.

Thanks Chris. Thanks Sal.

The pistons I have on the shelf are the 98mm Mahle 23mm pin 3.2 to 3.4 9.8:1 CR max morirz type, with these I'd NOT need twin plug, however, given all I'm putting in this engine it MAY make sense to sale these Mahles and buy a set of JEs at about 11.0:1 CR and go twin plug and your twin plug splitter would be needed.

For this build I'm starting with a relatively low mile 3.2 (50% leak down on no. 5 all other below 6% - may just be bad compression ring blow by). I already have a set of 130mm GT3 Pankl rods (we'll stack the cylinder base shims), 3.2 crank (rod journals are turned down by Marine, knife edged, cross drilled no 3&5 grooved/drilled, ion plasma hardened), 930 pump, etc. Considerring 993RS (113 LC), DC 993SS (114 LC) or DC 24 (113 LC) cams - overkill? I'm getting a set of custom anti-reversion headers built as well, DME chipped, etc. interested in your MAF solution.

My goal is to have a strong base engine built to be expandable down the road, meaning I could potentially ditch the motronic injection for ITB EFI with 3.6 plastic plenum setup, similar to Rothsport, that would then open up more cam selections - bolt on pieces to the strong base engine... I figure why not build for a lot more potential while we're in it...

Just throwing my thoughts out there for critique...

The DC24 is a bit aggressive and won't work that well with the stock 3.2 intake. This intake is tuned for a sweet spot of 5800RPMs after 6200RPMs torque just drops quickly no matter what cam you chose. You need to pick a cam that works well at this 5800RPM sweet spot. The 964 factory cam is a good choice for this.

Also the amount of valve lift needed is directly designed from head flow numbers, do not ignore this. Spend the money and have the heads ported and flowed then pick your cam based on the results of that work. Also the lobe center line is very important but the stock air meter won't tolerate narrow LCA but my MAF system will. The 112-114 LCA you often see in a lot of these cams is a trade-off for idle quality and low rpm drive-ability, the 3.2L motor will actually deliver more overall torque on a tighter LCA of around 110LCA, the tighter the LCA the more the intake valve is open earlier in the stroke where flow really matters! But tight LCA also increases overlap and the AFM won't like that, so the factory had to make some trade-offs.

These off the shelf cams would work in a 3.4L twin plug at 11.0:1 to 11.3:1 comp:
964 factory, especially if heads are ported and flowed.
DC20
DC21
Elgin Super C2

All of those cams close the intake valve at about the same point and that dictates the dynamic compression ratio.

Feel free to email me to discuss your build further, I already sent you my contact info via the PM you sent me.

UPDATED design!

Altered my splitter design so it no longer uses a terminal strip, making the install and wiring far simpler.

Still just 4 wire hookup in the engine bay:
1 - Heavy Black ground wire goes to main ground bolt on intake runner #1
2 - Heavy Red 12v constant wires to rear fuse block.
3 - Small black wire is switched 12v and needs power in RUN and START this wires to the original stock coil's '+' post black wire.
4 - Small blue wire is the coil trigger signal this wires to the stock coil's '-' post green wire.

Few pics of the new setup.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1599840837.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1599840864.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1599840899.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1599840920.jpg

Now it's been reduced to one module, one transistor, 3 resistors, & one capacitor.
No need to do any mods to the DME ECM!