Are 911's good in the snow?

[sugarwood]

Hopefully, it's a slow news day with tech issues....

My friend was talking about his 2001 Integra GSR

I put Michelin snow tires on it, packed it full of ski gear, and drove it from NYC to Jackson Hole, WY, where I ski bummed for the season. It never slid, got stuck, or had a mechanical problem while regularly driving over some of the coldest and snowiest roads in the US, such as Teton Pass. It was incredible in the snow. I don't think AWD would have improved it.

I asked, what makes one car better in the snow than another?
Does it simply speak to the quality of Michelin snow tires?
Did it just happen to have characteristics that inadvertently made it perform better in snow? (Like weight bias, etc)

He responded:

In my opinion, it comes down to how a car makes traction, and how it manages that traction, including what happens when traction is lost. The Integra was great in snow because it was front engine and FWD, which biases the weight over the drive wheels, enhancing traction. The engine needed to rev to produce much torque, which helped to avoid spinning the drive wheels and breaking traction.

The Michelins were great tires, so losing traction was pretty rare, but when it did lose traction on slick surfaces, the Integra reacted in a neutral and manageable way. It had very manageable understeer. If it was understeering, a little e-brake application or Scandinavian flick brought it right back into line.

It was also lightweight. Weight helps with traction by pressing harder on the tire contact patches, but it works against you when you lose traction. Remember Newtonian physics and inertia: a body in motion tends to stay in motion. If that body has more mass, such as a heavier car, it has more inertia and wants to stay in motion and in the same direction until traction is restored and that motion can be altered. Hence all the big SUVs you see in ditches during snow storms. That heavy weight is great until it's not.

With that can one conclude, in general, any FWD sports car will be good in snow, since it's lightweight and has a higher rpm torque curve?
But, for the torque thing, you can compensate by starting in 2nd gear.

Which mostly leaves lightweight and FWD.
Does that means the Mini will also be great in the snow?

Also, how the 911 does in the snow with its rear/rear config ?

[sugarwood]

Gratuitious video

[wildthing]

Unfortunately for me, the words, "sports car" and "FWD" do not go together. But, to each his own...



BTTT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW5oW1gsH7U

[Drisump]

2wd 911's have won the Monte Carlo rally a few times....so yeah I'd say they're good when in skilled hands. In deep snow, clearance would be an issue. I've hit snow a few times while driving my 3.2, car drives fine.....ventilation sucks though. Cheers

[Daves911L]

Yes, 911s are great fun in the snow. I wouldn't say easy, as they require a lot of concentration. But a 911 can be driven quickly and effectively in snow, and will get through stuff that will stop many "normal" vehicles The rear weight bias gives them good traction going forward. The same weight bias makes the front end light and loose, which requires alertness, and you do a lot of your steering with the throttle Probably many don't enjoy them in the snow because we tend to want wide, flat, shallow tread tires for summer use which are a real handful in the snow.

Oh, and the heat smells good too!

[mreid]

It's not the snow, they are great in the snow with the correct tires. However, the salt is very corrosive and will kill the dream.

[Otter74]

I'd broadly agree with your friend as to why a car like his Integra was good in snow. If you haven't tried them, good snow tires really do do wonders. My '93 Sentra SE-R was (is) great in snow, with the same qualities described in the Integra, Blizzaks and a viscous LSD.

[manbridge 74]

The over riding issue around here is with other drivers and their bald tire hoopties.

[grizzfan]

I cringe at the thought of all that ice and snow getting packed into my '73's fender wells and other places it should not be. That's why she stays in the garage from October until April.

Tom

[Jp-oh]

It really is all about the tires. My Tundra or AWD Durango with "all season" tires are useless in the snow but are TANKS with good winter tires. A 911 + studded hakkapeliittas + snow = rally time!

[wayner]

We've always ran snow tires.

My wife said that her mini was the best car that she has ever driven in the snow 9and we've had lots of cars)

I learned to drive in the years just before front wheel drive became common. We all drove like rally drivers, and that was just getting to school or the store. My friends with their VW beetles tended to do better.

[3literpwr]

Due to the weight distribution, 911s are actually rather good.

[manbridge 74]

Weight is generally a real beech in slick conditions. Imagine you are on an icy pond with a cone placed about ten yards out. Time yourself a running around cone and back. Now do it with a 50lb backpack. Big difference. Lighter vehicles are almost always better in most snow scenarios.

[djpateman]

I have not driven a 911 in winter, but used a 914 year-round for several years. With good winter tires they are awesome on snow or ice. However you do have to drive carefully or you can get into trouble. I remember climbing a icy hill while weaving around other vehicles in trouble. Also driving through blizzards while almost the only car on the roads.

[BFT3.2]

My first year living in Vail CO. in '93 I had a Honda Accord with Nokian Hakkapeliittas. As long as I didn't high-center it in a snow bank it was unstoppable. I'd love to take my rust free 911 out in the snow with some proper tires but the salt in the North East makes it a non starter for me.

Limerock held some sort of snowpacked autocross last winter, was very tempting.

[Quicksilver]

Putting weight on the tires is the key to go from "ok" to "great" for driving a car in snow. Had a buddy who ice raced a Mini and it was a great car. Its limitation was ride height when the track became rutted. Overall front drive with the engine on the drive wheels is a great setup.

Limited slip is a real improvement on ice and snow. Any time you can get more tires supplying power it obviously improves things.

The number thing you can do to improve driving performance on ice and snow is the same as any other time of year: Tires
Your connection to the ground is always your tires so their limits are your limits. On snow you want a tread that is open enough to shed the snow and micro siping will help with snow but it helps even more on ice.
The rubber compound makes a difference because a lot of summer compounds solidify to the point of having no inherent grip when below 0°.
Studs don't do anything on snow but they obviously help on hard ice. (It is amazing how many people spend the winter chewing up the asphalt in the pacific northwest with studs when they never see a hard chunk of ice.)

But by far, the number one thing you can do to improve winter handling and traction is use skinny tires. If you take any car and put narrow tires on it it will do well in the snow. It is all about pounds per square inch pushing the tire down onto the surface under the softer snow. Even when the road is tracked out so you are running on the tracks of bare asphalt it still makes a huge difference because when you try to change lanes a wide tire will act as a sled and not want to go over the hump of fluff between the tracks. This is one of the most important details about winter driving. Winter driving is 100% about constantly searching for traction. As you come up to a stop the road will be glazed because people are ham handed (footed?) about accelerating and braking and they polish the areas where they will start and stop. You will find extra grip by driving between the tracks and if you have wide tires you will not be able to accelerate or brake while keeping the tires there. During hard (emergency) braking you can stick the passenger side of the car into the heavy fluff that accumulates next to the snow bank and the car will stop significantly faster but you will need to control the cars tendency to want to hook into the bank. With a wide tire you won't be able to do that and the car will spin.

Lets add a BIG winter driving tip. Automatic transmissions are horrible for winter driving and their worst trait is their inability to completely stop in very low traction situations such as the polished ice right near an intersection. The auto trans is resisting the brakes by pulling the drive wheels forward while the other wheels have locked up and are just being dragged along.
Put an automatic transmission into neutral as you approach a stop when traction is limited! The difference in stopping distance is huge.

A 911 will drive great on the snow but the things I would consider are:
- How stupidly incompetent are the other drivers that are on the road? That guy behind you as you stop for a light hasn't ever put any thought into how to actually control a car besides aiming it from point to point. He almost certainly has an automatic, he hasn't done any planning, and he is behind your car!
- Do they sand your roads and if so, how do they sand them? Believe it or not roads aren't directly salted. They are sanded. The easiest way to make a pile of sand so it isn't frozen into a solid unworkable block is to mix it with salt. This is now illegal in a number of places because of the damage it does so some places use urea. Basically it will act as a fertilizer but that causes environmental damage too. If your area doesn't use sand, or doesn't use salted sand, you are good to go as far as worrying about corrosion damage to your car.

-----
Back when I was ice racing everyone always talked about wanting to race a 911 because it was perfect but no one was willing to pay to subject one to the carnage of a contact sport like ice racing. The end result was the development of the ultimate ice racing weapon: A 1300 pound VW Super Beetle with a 911 motor in it. It was/(is!) a monster. It will start to lift the front wheels exiting a corner and will leave a rooster tail of ice chips higher then a light pole. (Visibility in 2nd place sucks!)

[Daves911L]

Originally Posted by 3literpwr

Due to the weight distribution, 911s are actually rather good.

I like!!!!

[Daves911L]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

A 1300 pound VW Super Beetle with a 911 motor in it. It was/(is!) a monster. It will start to lift the front wheels exiting a corner and will leave a rooster tail of ice chips higher then a light pole. (Visibility in 2nd place sucks!)

Would love to see that beast. You nailed it on all points, with a refreshingly correct understanding of physics. My guess is you are not an orange county native.

[r_towle]

They are fantastic in the snow, just like an old beetle, but even better with more weight hanging out behind the rear wheels. get good snow tires and you won't get stuck.

High centering is your only worry, but that can be avoided by the driver and momentum.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

My friend was talking about his 2001 Integra GSR

I asked, what makes one car better in the snow than another?
Does it simply speak to the quality of Michelin snow tires?
Did it just happen to have characteristics that inadvertently made it perform better in snow? (Like weight bias, etc)

Which mostly leaves lightweight and FWD.
Does that means the Mini will also be great in the snow?

Also, how the 911 does in the snow with its rear/rear config ?

People often confuse traction, as in getting moving, or getting from point A to point B, with snow "ability." That's fine, but cornering and braking are important too.

Number 1 is tires. Full snows. Snow conditions vary, so one snow tire may do better than another in wet snow, or dry snow, or different depths, etc. Skinny tires help.

Number 2 is 4WD. Your friend is wrong, a good 4WD car will blow his Integra away. Not even close. A car with the engine over the driving wheels does better than one with the opposite arrangement but neither holds a candle to a decent 4WD car.

I'd rather have a lighter car than a heavier one, but that is secondary. A decent weight distribution is useful, nothing too heavy one either end. Soft suspension is also useful.

Full time 4WD is better than any part time system and the ones that control wheelspin with differentials instead of braking are better. Best are the ones with manual control of the diffs.

A 911 can get around in snow if decent tires are fitted but it's not a great snow car, at all. Lousy braking and cornering isn't great, either.

JR