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WUR: Strange increase in Warm Control Pressure

I have a 1982 Euro SC track car with a -089 WUR. I have had issues with the car running very lean after a couple laps of hard driving (ie - >5 minutes on the track). I have a AFM sensor which shows that initial WOT AFM is ~12.5, but steadily increases to >16 after the initial couple laps.

Prior to this last weekend, I measured all the WUR pressures which all appeared to be spec, as detailed below:

- System Pressure = 70 psi (spec = 65-75 psi)
- Warm CP (No Vacuum) = 40 psi (Spec 39-45 psi). Measured with engine off and bi-metallic strip allowed to electrically heat up.
- Warm CP (with vacuum) = 46 psi (Spec 49-55 psi). Vacuum hand pump used.

I have the WUR vacuum tube plugged - screw inside vacuum tube and I can confirm that this seals with a vacuum hand pump.

I ran the car on track with the CIS pressure gauges installed, I wanted to be able to measure the WCP once the lean condition issues developed. With the lean running condition confirmed via the AFM, I was able to determine that the WCP was now 46-psi (this is higher than the WCP spec pressure range) and concluded that this WCP value is the likely cause of my lean issue. System pressure was constant at 70-psi.

As there is a distinct difference in my originally measured WCP and the WCP I observed at the track, today I decided to measure the WCP with the bi-metallic arm removed (engine off and cold). My logic was that perhaps the bi-metallic arm was not fully extended when I originally measured the WCP. To my surprise, the WCP measured here was 40-psi still.

I am a bit baffled here to how WCP is able to increase past 40-psi. Perhaps there is a leak in the vacuum tube that I plugged and vacuum pressure is being applied to the WUR? Next time I will completely disconnect this hose as further diagnostics. I did also run the car with the vacuum tube unplugged and with the TTV confirmed open, and still had a lean WOT condition.

Is there anything downstream of the WUR that may increase WCP as the engine heats up? Perhaps if this occurs again next time, I could break off the return fuel line of the WUR and see if the WCP remains at 46-psi or falls back to 40-psi (this should confirm if the increased WCP is occurring at the WUR).

The -089 WUR has two springs. I understand the inner spring is affected by the vacuum diaphragm. Would it be possible to remove the inner spring to eliminate the vacuum diaphragm completely? I will just need to adjust WUR fuel diaphragm height accordingly to achieve the desired WCP with just the outer spring.

Please let me know if you have any thoughts or experience on this. I am really puzzled here! Unfortunately, this car is not street-legal, so opportunities to test and tune are limited. Thank you in advance.
Old 03-11-2016, 07:20 PM
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A 089 has 2 connections left horizontal is vacuum
Top vertical is vent to atmosphere
Which one did you block?
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vereeken View Post
A 089 has 2 connections left horizontal is vacuum
Top vertical is vent to atmosphere
Which one did you block?
Thank you for your message. I blocked the left horizontal connection. I also confirmed that this is the correct vacuum connection with a vacuum hand pump and CIS pressure gauges (control pressure would build with vacuum applied).
Old 03-12-2016, 03:33 AM
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Did you check to see if the screen is plugged or partially gummed up? There should be no problem with a correctly operating WUR I would not try to re engineer it. May be take it apart and closely inspect all the components.

Here is a very good post by one of the guy's here. This may not be your problem but you'll get a good look at the total operation of the WUR.

Warmup Regulator Strange Issue Solved

Last edited by gomezoneill; 03-12-2016 at 05:44 AM..
Old 03-12-2016, 05:36 AM
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I've the same wur in my Euro....I'd just send it off for a check rebuild ar CIS Flowtech.
Since the wur on the Euro's, unlike the US model (lamda), controls your AFR thru vacuum I'd be worried about running to lean and having other issues with the 9.8-1 comp.
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Old 03-12-2016, 06:21 AM
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Gomezoneill - In trying to address this issue, I disassembled the WUR before the last track event. I made sure that the screen was not plugged or gummed up. I soaked it with carburetor cleaner and injector cleaner solutions. This time round I will remove the diaphragm and make sure that it is properly clean underneath (I had not done this previously). I will also soak the screen in MEK and blow compressed air backwards.

You are right that I shouldn't be re-engineering the thing, but I'm really scratching my head unfortunately. Thank you for the link also, I had seen this previously but was a good opportunity to read it in detail again.

Reiver - I agree that we need to be cautious about lean running conditions. But my understanding is that on these WURs, the vacuum acts to increase CP (ie - lean out AFM) when manifold/throttle body vacuum is present (ie - during idle and partial throttle). Thus by eliminating this vacuum source, the WCP should be constant at the lower non-vacuum WCP value. Please feel free to let me know if my logic is flawed.
Old 03-12-2016, 09:55 AM
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Don't focus on one thing could be compound issue.
Old 03-12-2016, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brec9a View Post
Gomezoneill - In trying to address this issue, I disassembled the WUR before the last track event. I made sure that the screen was not plugged or gummed up. I soaked it with carburetor cleaner and injector cleaner solutions. This time round I will remove the diaphragm and make sure that it is properly clean underneath (I had not done this previously). I will also soak the screen in MEK and blow compressed air backwards.

You are right that I shouldn't be re-engineering the thing, but I'm really scratching my head unfortunately. Thank you for the link also, I had seen this previously but was a good opportunity to read it in detail again.

Reiver - I agree that we need to be cautious about lean running conditions. But my understanding is that on these WURs, the vacuum acts to increase CP (ie - lean out AFM) when manifold/throttle body vacuum is present (ie - during idle and partial throttle). Thus by eliminating this vacuum source, the WCP should be constant at the lower non-vacuum WCP value. Please feel free to let me know if my logic is flawed.

That is correct. Holding off the vacuum on a 089 makes sense if you only track it.
You set the WCP at the lower threshold with no vac applied.

What is the ohm reading on the electrical connection of the WUR?

I can only assume that the bimettalic does not flex enough under electrical heat, once heat soaked it flexes more.

You will need to measure Cold Control pressure no vac applied and take a note of outside temp. Next apply 12 v to wur and see the pressure rise. Should take about 3 minutes. Make sure you get 12+ volts at WUR not 11.8 or something.

I think a blockage in the fuel return can also cause this but you need to verify that in the fuel line drawings.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:08 AM
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Gomezoneill - I agree that I need to keep other components in consideration. However, I've been tackling this issue for a couple of months now. Been through all the ignition items: swapped out CDI, coil, spark wires and distributor with known working items. Installed new spark plugs, checked ignition timing, cleaned distributor, new distributor rotor and cap. Checked things on the air side: checked valve timing, checked leak downs, and checked for vacuum leaks. Fuel system: new fuel pump, confirmed fuel delivery rate is good, cleaned/replaced fuel injectors, new filter, cleaned fuel tank, checked the fuel return line is clear, and checked that fuel cell vent hose is clear.

So really hope that I'm onto something here with this WCP reading which reads higher than when all the Cold Control Components are removed from the WUR.

Vereeken - The measured resistance for the WUR electrical connections is 31.0 ohm. The spec on the resistor is 30.0 ohm +/- 3%. So I am outside of this tolerance.

With regards to measuring WCP, I removed the cold control components from the WUR (the bi-metallic strip), reinstalled and turned on the fuel pump. This takes the cold control components out of the equation, but the pressure was only 40-psi. So for some reason, when lean running conditions occur on the track, this control pressure is at 46-psi with vacuum port plugged and engine warm. So need to determine the cause of this additional pressure build up. Could easily be a restriction in fuel return lines that only occur when the system heats up thermally. Note - system pressure remains constant (70psi).

I will try tomorrow to replicate this 46psi control pressure scenario with the car idling in the garage.

Last edited by brec9a; 03-12-2016 at 03:40 PM..
Old 03-12-2016, 03:15 PM
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I am not used to PSI, but something in this story does not add up. Maybe I am just misreading it.

So you measured CCP with the bi-metallic strip removed? So that means the pin and mexican hat also removed?

In that case you should read 0 bar no? This is cold control pressure. It is the pin that controls the pressure, the springs and strip just steer the pin up and down. Ok so you might read 0.2 or 0.3 bar CP without the pin but I can not understand how you would read 40PSI (2.7 bar) with no pin in place.

I do not claim to be the last word in WURs but a CCP of 2.7 with no pin in place seems odd to me.

The ohm reading is OK. You need an expensive multimeter to read perfect Ohms. I consider everything between 27 and 33 OK.

Even with the pin , bi-metal and springs in place 2.7 bar is already high as CCP but maybe you live in Las Vegas or Arizona....


This is the correct graph for 089 (forget PSI, 089 is Europe).



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Old 03-13-2016, 11:19 AM
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Vereeken - My apologies if I was not clear. I removed only the bi-metallic strip as I wanted to understand what the Warm Control Pressure is truly set at. The pin and mexican hat (very good description!) remained installed. With regards to the CCP setting, I have made my WUR adjustable, so am able to tune it accordingly, but my lean issues are solely focused on warm running conditions that arise after a couple WOT laps on track.

In all previous testing of my WUR, the Control Pressure would build to 40-psi (~2.76-bar) with no vacuum and once the bi-metallic strip had fully heated up via the WUR resistor. This has been confirmed with both the engine running and with the engine off (fuel pump running).

However, once lean running conditions developed on track, I measured the Control Pressure and was surprised to see that it read 46-psi (~3.17-bar). The vacuum port was plugged, and this 46-psi Control Pressure would be observed both with the engine running or if just the fuel pump was running. The control pressure would only drop to below this 46-psi once the engine has been allowed to cool for a couple hours.

So my thought was that possibly the bi-metallic was not fully heated when I previously (and repeatably) measured the Warm Control Pressure at 40-psi (~2.76-bar). Thus by removing the bi-metallic strip, I would be able to determine the actual Warm Control Pressure. However, during this test the Warm Control Pressure value was 40-psi, and not the 46-psi I was expecting. Therefore, there is some restriction in the system that causes the Control Pressure to build while on track.

Yesterday I attempted to get the engine to replicate 46-psi Control Pressure by letting it idle in the garage for ~45-minutes and see if temperature alone causes this lean condition to occur (unfortunately the car is not street legal). I adjusted the CCP to a very low value (~10-psi/0.7-bar) to confirm that this low control pressure would be able to flow through the WUR fuel return line unrestricted (engine off, fuel pump on) - no issues here. I allowed the Control Pressure to build to the required pressure via the WUR resistor prior to starting the engine (I targeted 30-psi/2-bar). With the engine running, the Control Pressure steadily increased to 40-psi (~2.75-bar). Unfortunately, the Control Pressure never increased beyond 40-psi, and I was unable to replicate the lean running condition.

I subsequently decided to check that I could blow through all the fuel lines downstream of the WUR. With the WUR fuel return line disconnected, I was initially unable to blow to the Primary Pressure Regulator assembly (with the PPR removed). However, I was able to blow through this line on the second attempt. Perhaps this is an indication here? But odd how 10-psi control pressure was able to flow down this line initially unrestricted. The fuel return line from the engine to the fuel tank was clear and I was able to blow down this line.
Old 03-14-2016, 04:11 PM
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Ok I understand. You must be very handy. I can not get that pin to seat in the hole without the guidance of the bimetal, but hey...

Still a strange problem and we are not getting closer.

You system pressure remains consistent....only your control pressure changes after some serious pedalling?

You could try to open the WUR disc that controls the flow of fuel.

It is held by 4 little screws from the inside of the WUR. You will destroy these most likely, so have replecaments ready. Underneath you will find a thin round membrane in metal. You could have debris in there. But why that would manifest itself after long warm-up??? No idea.

So what else is there? The Plunger in the FD? The fuel return line? It is only the side of the control pressure that could be at question.


I agree you have to find the problem but I believe you get 46 PSI at max which is the high side of what is allowable , can you not compensate with the CO setting?
Not very elegant but ....
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Old 03-15-2016, 10:56 AM
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Elliott,

It looks like the return line is clear, or as you stated, even your cold pressure would go through the roof.

So I can see 2 reasons :
1) A problem with the WUR membrane, producing inconsistent pressures.
2) A problem on the FD pressure regulator, changing your system pressure when warm. A different system pressure will give a different control pressure for the same WUR.

I have a spare WUR which is set to 40psi warm, for a system pressure of 70psi.
Since you have the same system pressure, you can borrow it before the next track event. This will take your WUR out of the equation. I would not disassemble the membrane on your WUR at this point.

What's missing on your car to make it street legal ? That would help...

-Guillaume
Old 03-15-2016, 04:07 PM
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Vereeken - I am pretty certain that I also checked the system pressure when I experienced elevated control pressure, and that it remained consistent (@ 70-psi). But I will definitely make sure to measure this if this issue occurs again (really hope that I do not have it!!)

I have since opened up the WUR disc...managed not to damage the screws and the metal membrane looks in good condition. Currently have the WUR filter soaking in acetone to give it a thorough clean.

Will focus this weekend on making sure all fuel lines are clear. With regards to the plunger, I have seen other threads that detail accessing the FD plunger to give it a clean (with particular caution not to drop it!). I would like to do this, but really fear that I may damage or mess something up. Do you think that I should pursue the FD plunger at this time?

I have tried previously to compensate with rich CO settings, but does not resolve issue at high-rpm.

Guillaume - Thank your for your message. Thanks for the offer on the WUR....that would be a good idea to swap out WURs (and should be relatively quick and seemless) - will keep in touch in the days leading up to April. I happened to have already disassembled the WUR membrane (on Sunday) prior to your message, so far no damage caused by me.

I guess you are right with regards to having the car street legal. At the moment it has no lights, no horn and has straight exhaust pipes....so I am guessing that I would have to tackle those items first if I were to make it street legal.
Old 03-17-2016, 01:26 PM
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I can see you know what you are doing.

So if you say System pressure remained stable, it is stable.

If the disc is clean the WUR is out of the equation.

Can not harm to replace with a known good one for testing.

To me only the Fuel lines and FD remain. But i would have assumed it would become richer when it warms up....

It would be the last place to go too. Luckely you are in the US and you have good rebuilders. I would not do it myself. Open/close I could manage but trimming the plunger to the tolerances I could not.

There is one thing you could do. It is possible you have air leaks at intake base, exhaust side or at injector sleeves. When warming up the air leaks become more pronounced...maybe...

Also test the fuel flow of the pump after the pump has run for a while...how much amps is the fp drawing.
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:55 AM
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You only need lights, horn, and decent tires to pass the inspection here.
The exhaust will be fine :-)
Old 03-18-2016, 06:35 AM
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Vereeken - Thank you for the compliment, but until I can resolve this lean issue my technical self-confidence remains in question! ha

Yeah, I'll likely not dig into the FD plunger then. The air leak theory has crossed my mind also. I redid the exhaust gaskets to ensure that they seal. I will go around and make sure all the manifolds nuts/bolts are torqued.

I have checked fuel pump delivery on multiple occasions (getting >1L in 30-seconds). But I have not measured it while lean running occurs, so will be prepared to do this. I will measure FP current draw also.

I also plan to install a voltage gauge in the cabin to measure voltage to the FP while driving. My question here is if I need to wire the +/- gauge terminals to the +/- FP terminals. Alternatively, is it best to wire the + gauge terminal to the - FP terminal, and ground the - gauge terminal separately? Or does it even matter? This would confirm that the FP is getting the correct voltage while running.

Guillaume - I will certainly look into this further. May get in touch with you to discuss.
Old 03-18-2016, 12:24 PM
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I would ground gauge separately, connect live wire straight to FP. Put a fuse in line.

Doubt it will tell you much...

The only thing I can see is an increased AMP drawing of the FP when heating up.
The pump should also make a lot of noise when it does that....

But most likely it sits in the Plunger or one of the fixed fuel lines....
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Old 03-20-2016, 11:21 AM
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the plunger in the FD has nothing to do with CP.

you really need to check system pressure when this is going on.
try blowing thru the return line back to the tank. (I was able to blow thru mine).
you also need to run the car and see if it still does it with the metal strip removed.
you also need to check power to the WUR.

for those that done know, here is how the CCP works:
the WCP is set first because once warm the metal strip should no longer touch/effect the spring that pushes up on the diaphragm. if the strip or the heating element starts to go bad the strip will not fully bend up, thus still pushing down on the spring keeping the WCP low, if the element is bad the engine heat can continue to heat up the strip which will cause it to bend up more thus raising the WCP.

I don't know what you have for enrichment or CIS on your car as in the throttle switch, but on my old car that used the vacuum enrichment it did not drive very well when plugged.
If you continue to not use the vacuum, I would set the WCP for the spec that the CIS system you are using requires.

running a lower CP does not make the engine run richer if you go back and set the idle mixture to what it was before lowering the CP. it will change the angle or location of the senor plate in the AFM for a giving RPM. this will or should make it start to run richer at a lower RPM as it transitions to WOT enrichment. this was happening around 4k on my car.
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Old 03-21-2016, 09:21 AM
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Vereeken - Thanks for insight on properly setting up a voltage gauge to the FP....will implement this.

T77911S - Thank you for your thoughts and inputs, I really appreciate each.

- Yes, I will be sure to confirm system pressure when this lean condition occurs next (will report back). But I am fairly confident that I confirmed it being consistent last time I checked system when this problem occurred...so will be good to confirm it again to be 100%. It will not be until the 1st weekend in April unfortunately though.

-This last weekend I successfully flew through all the fuel lines, including the fuel return line to the fuel tank.

- I confirmed the WCP setting by removing the bi-metallic strip, re-assembling and connecting the WUR. With the fuel pump running (engine not running), I confirmed that the control pressure (effectively the WCP since the bi-metallic strip was removed) was 40-psi. Whereas I observed the control pressure increased to 46-psi during lean running conditions. So there is a potential flow/pressure restriction downstream of the pressure gauge which is not the WUR WCP setting. Power to WUR is ~12 volts.

- I have attempted to resolve this lean running condition with both the vacuum enriched plugged and unplugged...both without success and improvements to the lean running conditions. Each time I have adjusted the mixture screw to target stoichometric A/F ratios within the spec idle speed. Unfortunately no luck down this avenue.

Update on this weekend's work:
So this weekend I worked through each fuel line from the fuel tank, to the engine and back to the fuel tank to ensure each was clear of blockages. I was successfully able to blow through each line without issue.

I made one intriguing (and hopefully not worrying) observation though. I disconnected the fuel line from the top of the FD that delivers fuel to the WUR. When looking inside the top of the FD, I noticed what appeared to be a cylinder with a circular impression on this cylinder (a couple images should be attached). Is this the FD plunger and are these circular impressions supposed to be here? I understand that certain OD faces of this plunger have very tight tolerances.

I attempted to determine whether this component is the plunger by lifting up the air flow sensor plate, but it did not move up when I lifted the plate up. I have looked extensively online for photos and details of the plunger to better understand if what I have photographed is the plunger (ie - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfoqaQjw2lw).

I am aware that any issues with the plunger would not influence Control Pressure gauge reading. But perhaps this is something that needs to be looked into further?

For context, I previously attempted to use a Harbor Freight fuel pressure tester gauge/kit to confirm CIS residual pressure drop. However, while screwing in the gauge into the top of the FD, the adapter sheared between the adapter body and base thread - nightmare! Perhaps the thread length of this adapter was long enough foul on this internal component and was the cause of this adapter breaking (plus me over-torquing!). Following this, I successfully used an alternative fuel pressure tester kit, resolved my CIS issue and the car ran fine thereafter. I have also since learnt that it is best to connect fuel testing kit to the connection break at the WUR rather than at the FD.

Sorry for such a long message.







Old 03-21-2016, 04:43 PM
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