A bit of blasphemy regarding a 2.7
 

I have a 2.7L motor from 1976. I know it ran a few years ago, maybe 2 or 3, and the car was parked until I bought it last year. I pulled the motor and sent the car to the painter, and I have the motor and tranny in the garage. I don't currently have the funds to rebuild the thing , but I do want to get the motor running again so I can at least drive around a bit before I decide my direction on motors.
This motor doesn't have the Carrera tensioner upgrade, doesn't look like it's ever been opened, to be honest. No idea how many miles are on it since it wasn't original to the car. It DOES have an 11-blade fan on it, I thought motors from 1976 had 5-blade fans.
At any rate, I just want to get this motor running before I decide to rebuild either this one or go bigger. What steps can I take to see about doing that?
I placed this in the technical forum because technically this isn't an engine rebuild. Did I do wrong?

I would start with pulling top and bottom valve covers and look for broken head studs. Tim

Probably the first thing to do would be to remove the rocker covers and see if any of the head studs are broken or pulled from the case.

^^^

Now Tim, that's just freaky (and people will likely "talk" :eek:)! :D

You're good here Mick. Were I in your shoes, first thing I'd do is remove the spark plugs squirt a little oil in each cylinder... let that sit a few minutes... then turn the engine over slowly by hand to see how it felt over a few cycles. That would be my reference point as to what to do next. If anything binds, you want to discover this via a hand turn vs a startup. Given the sitting time of the car, fuel system should be flushed by default.

Not sure if you mean starting the engine while it's out of the car as it is or after reinstalling it. Certainly when it's out there are any number of things that could be attended. Wayne's book "101 Things" might be a helpful resource. Know you don't want to do rebuild now but there are a few things you can sort out in the book that are maintenance oriented with minor parts costs.

Lol, they say "good minds think alike"? Not sure that applies to us, or at least me. :eek:
Tim

Can I fix broken headstuds without a rebuild?
I have both the Anderson book and both Wayne books, I'm definitely going through the thing. I just want to be able to run the motor after it's installed so I can move the car fairly easily if I have to or take a drive around the block. I know everyone starts with the head stud problem. I'm just wanting to see if the thing will run.

I don't have the time space or tools to set up a stand the engine could be mounted on for running outside the car, sadly. would love to have one, that'd be awesome.

Somebody correct me ifin I'm wrong but he won't have broken (Dilivar) head studs in a magnesium case 2.7 as the Dilivar didn't happen until the 3.0 SC's; however, he might have head studs that have pulled out of the case itself in which situation yes, you'll have to tear it down to put case-savers inserts in the case.

Yeah, I'm expecting to find that. I hope I can get the motor running for a b it before I have the case savers and other work done.

Pulled head studs did not happen to 100% of the magnesium 2.7 engines. Yours might be fine in this regard, so cross your fingers and check. You could luck out - it's quite possible.

I sure as hell could use some good luck this year.

Mick, so you have the proper fuel (CIS/K-Jetronic, right?) and ignition systems for the 2.7? If so, then the main thing you'll probably need to do is make sure all of the CIS components are clean and in working order, in order to start/run the the engine (not an easy task if they have been sitting for a while).

Also, after you've installed the engine, remove the fuel pump relay and crank the engine with the starter to ensure that you have oil pressure before starting it.

Getting back to basics, if engine manually rotates easily and the gearbox is still attached to the engine, perform a compression test. If ok, you're good. Follow up by cleaning the fuel system and repairs any sources of oil leaks, adjust valve clearance, tidy up the engine externals, replace needed oil seals (rear main, oil drain tubes, etc.), inspect clutch assy., etc.).

Mick... don't rush it or you will certainly be mad at yourself later.

We all understand that you are ancy and want to drive the car.
This is normal considering that Porsche's are just awesome.

But sitting for just 6 months can cause problems. I strongly urge that you listen to the wise counsel above and put the motor/tranny back in and start from square one.

You will need to clean the entire fuel system and flush the lines. Check the fuel tank for gunk. I would really consider that you open the air box and check to see if the fuel distributor is free flowing. If not, it needs to be sent to Larry at CIS Flowtech. It would not hurt to get your WUR services and tuned at the same time.

Replace your soft lines in the engine bay that come from the supply side of the fuel pump and the return of the CIS. The injector lines should be okay.

You will also want to remove your injectors, take them to a Diesel Fuel shop and have them ultrasonically cleaned.

A new fuel pump, new spark plugs, new air filter, new fuel sending unit, new fuel accumulator are all items that I would change out after the engine turns over by hand with nothing interfering/impeding complete revolutions.

Porsche's are not cheap, but they are very rewarding once they are completely ironed out, and will provide you with many years of enjoyment when driven frequently and maintained and loved as they so rightfully deserve!

Good advice above: remove valve covers and look. Turn engine by hand to see if there are any problems. Compression check. Post the engine serial number and engine type number found on the right side of the engine near the fan housing. That it has the eleven blade fan is a very good sign. It means someone did some upgrades. You may be a lucky guy with a good engine. After 40 years those engines still running have had rebuilds or replacement. I am thinking you are lucky.

one thing to keep in mind , the studs can be pulled and look perfectly intact if you take the covers off. The issue will be they are very loose or wont take torque. Not like I would suggest torqueing them up either so its a bit tricky.

may want to put a hex in there and just make sure they aren't loose. If they are only finger tight you know to be concerned.

I'll be doing all of this, Im sure. The way my luck has been running the past few years, I am expecting everything to be worst case scenario. We shall see...
It may be a month or so before i can even start looking at this motor. Doesn't mean I can't start thinking about it. Thanks for all the advice.

Keep us posted, I'm in the same scenario as you and haven't done my recon on my engine yet either.

Ok, I'm a PP veteran and have experienced the forum chatter. Everything above is correct for the car and engine. But don't forget your goals! If engine has pulled head studs.....a rebuild is in future no matter what. It has little resale value and YET can still run and function within certa in parameters for a long time. Sure if you want a peace of mind, pull covers. BUT if it passes compression and leak down and passes a close visual inspection for blow out.....like a traditional engine blown head gasket appearance, then assume it'll run. Your not looking for a restoration it doesn't sound at this second. If already broken, worst case it's an engine drop later...4hrs.

BUT I'd oil cylinders, clean out fuel, change plugs or at least blast, turn over by hand, maybe even get a torque reading of drag, disconnect ignition b4 starter. Make a good audible and visual inspection.

I'm just kinda like if you aren't interested in fixing it, why investigate whether it's broken! Change trans fluid too!

These are just my opinions and a little devils advocate to the above ideal mechanical advise.

Good luck

I'm pretty sure the Dilavar studs started with the Nikasil cylinders on 2.7s To compensate for different shrinkage and expansion rates on these cylinders.

Thanks Luke, this is what I was thinking in terms of scope. Engine and tranny are out of the car already. Visually, except for the missing fan pulley and belt it looks ok. Some oil seepage, but not a ton of blowby. Just want to make sure I can pull it in and out of the garage if I have to ( I have a steepish driveway, it's a ***** to push cars up it by myself and the dog refuses to help ) .
It will also buy me a bit of time to decide on committing to a 2.7 rebuild or buying a bigger motor. I keep waffling on that. I'll figure it out.

Valve adjustment (back-side method- see Pelican Parts "Tech Article"), plus re-torque the head studs and replace the cover gaskets, it really tightens up the engine.

More power, less leaks.

My first experience doing this (2007), lots of people helped me through it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/357302-2-7-l-torque-headstuds-8-mm-allen.html

The second time I adjusted the valves only a few head stud needed any tightening. No movement at all in the following adjustments years later, it's staying tight.

PS: just my opinion, stick with non-synthetic oil, I really like Kendall GT-1.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/662927-switch-kendall-oil-appears-have-solved-my-long-term-chain-rattle-issue-2.html#post8037258

Kendall gear oil is pretty good too, two types get the right kind - research.

PS-2: Seafoam cleaning - white billowing clouds of smoke - search it out.

Thanks K22. This summer/autumn is going to be a lot of ... something;)
I've done the seafoam thing on a Hemi . Not sure I can justify putting THAT much smoke and steam into the neighborhood air again ;)

I do seafoam treatments at night so neighbors dont see it. While the engine is out check the vacuum lines and replace thermostat and oil cooler seals. You can check for vacuum leaks by using a shop vac to pressurize the intake manifold and use soap solution to see if any bubbles appear.

Never retorque the head studs.

It would help if some explanation accompanied your statement.

Sherwood

Something occurs to me: A compression test on a cold motor isn't going to give anyone any good data, is it? I can't start the motor and let it warm up to do the compression test correctly, so it's sort of not worth doing until the motor runs again, right?

If the motor is good, even cold you should get good results, your looking for consistency from all six cylinders!:)

If the motor hasn't been run for a while, I'm not sure how valid a compression test would be. Stuck rings could loosen up after a couple of heat cycles, carbon could burn out etc.

I would, however, check for loose or broken head studs. DON"T try to torque them. Just put an allen wrench on them. If some are loose, you have a problem. At that point you will have to decide on your next course of action. If it were me, I would try to tighten them. I have heard of the nuts coming loose, but the studs are OK. Worse case is it won't tighten, well it was pulled anyway.

A couple of days ago I had an exhaust noise, so I examined all of the studs. One exhaust was loose. It turned out to be the nut that had come loose, but the stud was tight. I torqued it down = exhaust noise gone. It does happen.

Not a lot to explain, just that head studs should never be retorqued. They are locktited at the block. You might want to check with very light pressure to make sure the nuts have not backed off, but never loosen to retorque. That is a really good way to break a stud, or pull them out of the block.

100% accurate.

Also completely true - the last thing one would want to do is actually re-torque head stud nuts in a mag cased engine with dilivar studs (any kind of studs, for that matter, if case-savers aren't installed); for the reasons you mention and also that the measured torque values would be deceptive since the nuts had not just been lubricated (not like THAT!).

Pull the fan shroud and check for little critter nest. I found a large nest over the oil cooler on a 2.7 backup that I thought was in a mouse free zone. I think they like that green shroud. Lol

If you go to the link I provided you may see that one of my nuts was actually off and laying inside of the cover!

Hence the reason for reattachment. Would you have left it off?

I suspect the shop which did my first valve adjustment screwed up, like they did several other things, but have no solid proof. It is certainly possible they were attempting to cause more damage and loosened some nuts on purpose, they are unethical and incompetent and still wrench on Porsches. PM me for full details.

I did my research, and decided to go slightly below the full spec number out of caution (see link). Close enough was good enough and no studs were broken - thankfully.

Lose head stud nuts cause a loss of power, at least that's what my butt dyno told me. Snugging things up may help mitigate a few oil leaks too.

Like I said, did this procedure twice, third time all was still snug, not even going to check things on next valve adjustment, no reason to.

If you are going to check for lose nuts, use a torque wrench, set it for far less than full spec to start with, after that it's like Russian roulette.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/67135-how-do-you-check-headstuds-when-valve-covers-off.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/454159-2-7-head-studs-torqued-some-turned-bit-i-used-search-button.html
I know the names on the forum which I trust.

I'm going to chime back in on this, because I could have added additional detail to my post above, and because there have been some interesting subsequent posts.

Put simply, the studs must be installed sticking a specific length out of the crankcase. When the nuts are torqued, the end of the stud will reside at the top of the threads in the nut, which is to say that the 'socket' portion of the nut will be of equal depth in each nut.

In my situation, the nut was loose. Obviously I couldn't leave it like that, so I removed it to check things out. A small magnet inserted into the head stud's hole showed that the stud was steel, so it likely wasn't broken. Since there are case savers in my crankcase, the odds were that the stud was generally OK.

So, rather than removing and tearing the engine down, I decided to torque the nut. If this failed, then the engine would have to be removed and torn down. Duh. I gambled that the nut could simply be torqued and I'd be on my merry way.

My information said that the nut and washer should be coated with anti-seize compound, and then should be torqued to 23.5 foot pounds. I did this. After torquing, the stud protruded into the nut in exactly the same way that all of the other studs resided in their nuts. Conclusion = the stud had not perceptibly moved, so I might be home free.

I started the car and my exhaust noise had vanished. Then I drove the snot out of the car, and nothing seems to have changed.

If for some reason all of this is incorrect, then the engine will have to come apart. But, what would a rational alternative have been? To leave it alone, with the nut loose? I don't think so.

Considering all the serious softball-sized wasp nests I found in the bay and undercarriage on this car when I took the motor out, I think it's safe to just go ahead and assume there are a few condos built under the shroud;)

Right, looks like some confusion on the different terms that people are using . . . no one here suggested that an unscrewed nut should be left off or that nuts should be left loose/finger tight if found to be in that condition, but there is a huge difference to re-installing a nut, checking nuts for looseness, and "torquing them down" (which implies putting the original torque value to all the nuts by using a torque measuring wrench = not a smart move).

I've read Walker's posts for years, and am fairly certain that in his quotes in post #35, he was talking about lightly checking them for snugness by hand with a ratchet - not grabbing the torque wrench and twisting with wild abandon.

hhhhhmmmmm

Ha ha - sweet! :D