I have had some great help from '86 911 Targa' this afternoon!

He not only sent me 'many pages' from his OEM Porsche Electrical manual, but he also guided me through numerous tests. I still have a 'no start', but at the moment, at least the alarm is now correctly disconnected with the proper jumpers. I'll keep on trying to resolve it...Whatever it is, it continues to be very elusive.

I plan on taking the electrical section of the ignition switch off to see whats happing within. At the moment, the current 'run' position, does power everything that I know of.

The first 'turn' powers pin #86 on the relay which is the cornerstone of everything else to turn on and off in the DME relay.

Has anyone ever had only 'one position' fail on their ignition switch?

OK, I re-read your previous comments. fuse #7 and fuse #8 are both powered from the ignition key. They both need to have power when the key is in RUN (or START). If there is no power with the key in RUN it's your ignition switch.

Get a jumper wire and run it from the battery + terminal directly to the top of fuse #7 and then try again to start. Or even easier connect top of fuse #6 and fuse #7 with screwdriver while an assistant cranks.

If the car starts with that you have conclusively shown the ignition switch to be bad. And try that before taking the electrical part of the switch apart. There will be lots of parts coming out and it's not trivial to put it back together.

Ingo

Thanks for the info Ingo... It has to be ay. I have good readings from the speed and reference sensors, including the new head temp sensor. Even both the original and the spare new relay check out. The car is stock, and all of the wiring is in excellent condition. Very clean and pliable.

I'll take the electrical part of the switch out in the am. I assume that I should be able to see where the terminal is worn....Or?

BTW, '86 911 Targa' is on the same page. A 'big' thanks to both of you.

I'll post a reply tomorrow to what I find. I'll order a new switch tonight, whether I need one or not. 99.9% of the reasoning makes me quite sure that I do indeedee need a new one.

Thanks again!

Before taking it apart try jumping the fuse #6 and #7 just to make sure. Also get a new part since you might not get all the springs and little pieces back together in the right order...

'I wish' but it is not the ignition switch :confused:

What happens at the DME relay when you connect fuse #6 and fuse #7 and then turn ignition to RUN?

What voltage do you see at the alarm module connector?

What voltage do you see at the screw terminals of your ignition coil?

Ingo

Since you can't see electrons moving you can't really tell an electrical component is good by looking at it.

How about if you go back to some of those components you declared good and tell us why you reached that conclusion?

Hi Ingo...I had checked the black wire on the alarm yesterday, and it had no power with the key on or off. At that time, just to make sure that the alarm was not the issue, I pulled the two separate connectors off of the module and made up two short, permanent, jumpers with spade ends on them, for between #61 -#61 and #87a -#15 terminals on the 8 pin connector.

Fuses:
After putting a jumper from #8 -#7, I then tried to start the car. Still a no start.

Coil: Both sides have 12.8 V.

The coil check :

1. I pulled the coil wire out of the distributor cap.

2. I Attached it to a new spark plug, and grounded it to the ground point on the engine.

3. I disconnected the ignition wire from the coil, and replaced it with a jumper. When lightly touching the other end of the jumper to the ground on the engine - off and on- I got a bright blue spark each time.

Being that it appears not to be the ignition switch, it just may be that the new speed sensor is a dud. I have had it out and rechecked the gap with my new-old 'torched' sensor that does have a 8 mm washer glued to the end of it. The replacement sensor has no marks on it this time around so the clearance is good. Both sensors do test out OK in ohms on the multimeter.

'1986 911 Targa' suggested that I should do a diode test so that I would be able to literally see a pulse, that is if it has one. I'll then be able to check the speed sensor. Hopefully it's dead Installing a new one should technically[/I] make the engine start.

I will let you and others know how the Diode testing goes.

Thanks for your input Ingo, I appreciate it.

Michael
PS- Do you happen to be in competition with the greater L.A.'s 'IN -N-Out Burger' chain with -> 'IN-GO-OUT Burgers'? ;)

Hi Rick-I...I did so by checking and rechecking. Like multitude rechecks with a high end Fluke multimeter. I did continuity tests, Volts, ohms; tests on numerous wires and components. The checked out values are Porsche's.

Although I am getting the correct reading for the sensors on a multimeter, they are not able to show me if they are sending a pulse. I'm buying some items today so as to give them a dioate test which are able to show if there is a pulse. Sometime today I will be able to confirm if any of the two new sensors are duds or not. Hopefully the speed sensor is. Problem solved....I hope

Thanks for your interest.

I wanted you to jumper fuse #6 to #7. Please try that and report back

Will do - #6and#7
Then just try to start or should other multimeter checks be made while jumped?

Thanks!

PS - Being that #8 has 12.8 V , #7 doesn't, and #6 does...What difference will this make than when I used #8?

Please check how you count the fuses. See the diagrams below for the fuses. 5 & 6 are powered from A of the ignition switch (hot when ACC and RUN but not hot when START) and 7 & 8 are powered from C (hot when RUN or START).

So you need to short 6 and 7 and then see if the DME relay stage 1 switches when you put the ignition switch to ACC or RUN. Also check if you measure +12V on the coil screw terminal.

The car will not start because fuse 5 & 6 loose power once you crank. If you want to start the engine you need to run a jumper wire from the battery positive terminal to fuse 7 (red arrow). Once you have power there you should have power at the coil and the DME relay and the ICV should vibrate.

Ingohttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1466445618.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1466445629.jpg

Hi Ingo...Thanks for the additional info.
First... I tested the ECU connectors speed and reference pins with a diode with a 1/4 watt resistor soldered to it. I got nice, bright, flashes from them when cranking it over - The sensors are OK.

I now understand your reason for jumping #6 & #7 fuses. When turned to AC the pump started. I then jumped from the + battery to #7, but unfortunately still a no start.

12.7 V on both sides of the coil prior to and during the jumper set up. There was also no sounds from the ICV... I previously did clean it with carb cleaner and it 'rattled' freely when shook. Mind you, it did before I cleaned it.

Do you have any other suggestions?

Hopefully you didn't plug the two sensors in the wrong connectors, i.e. happens often.
You did say that you got a spark when turning the ignition switch on/off, right?
If so, you probably have power to the control unit (DME). If not, just check three of
the four corner end pins for power (1, 18, 35).

Re counting the fuses.
I am manually counting them from 1 forward as they are on the bus.
#6 is the pump. The top has red with a greenie- gold striped wire with one solid red at the bottom. The top red one with the greenie-gold stripe runs to the DME relay.

#7 has nothing on the top and two 16 gage wires on the bottom. A solid black and a green with a fine blue stripe.

# 8 - Top has a large red with a yellow stripe including a 16 gage red wire with a black stripe. The bottom has a single black 16 gage wire.

The car is a Cab with a manual roof. All options with the exceptions of no auto heat nor heated seats.

Alarm voltage.

12.8 V on connector #15 with key OFF.

With key ON - 12.8 V on T- and 30.

Thanks for your thoughts Dave... Appreciated. No, all three of the sensors are in their correct connectors. Head - Speed and Crank Sensor. I have also double checked them by running a continuity test from the male plugs to the ECU connector pins- 25 & 26 for the crank sensor and 27 & 8 for the speed sensor.

The only way to properly know whether you have the sensors connected correctly is to
measure their voltage while cranking, i.e. ref (25, 26) - .10/.20 VAC, speed - (8, 27)
1.0/2.0 VAC. Did you do that? Did you measure the main powers (1, 18, 35)? You obviously
have some power since you get a spark at key on/off. You know you can always jump the
DME relay's #30 power to the proper pins to allow the engine to run and then work backwards
to solve the possible fuse problems.

The diagram in my previous post has fuse position per fuse box. When you look at your fuse panel there is a 3-fuse block and then anther block with more fuses right next to it. Your count is off by 3 and you ended up connecting #3 from block 1 (fuel pump) and #4 from block 2 (Term A powered with switch in ACC). Please re-do the test and add 3 to my instruction: Connect (counting from left to right) fuse 9 and fuse 10 at the bottom. Report back.

The 9th fuse is #6 in the diagram and is energized when the key is in ACC. It has red/yel from ignition switch and red/blk black and red/blk at the bottom. The 10th fuse has red/blk from ignition switch and a brown to the anti-theft relay at the top.

With this jumper turn the ignition to RUN and verify the DME relay clicks stage 1 clicks. The fuel pump should NOT start when you turn the key. Then run a wire from the battery plus terminal to the 10th fuse. With that the car should start. If not continue troubleshooting by checking voltages at the coil and whether ICV is vibrating. If not it could be connectors reversed for speed and reference or issues with the chip inside the DME.

Ingo

No spark or fuel. Only power on ECU connector is #1 and #30 on the relay.

I got the spark by taking the the ignition side of the coil wire off, and then I hooked a jumper to it. This included pulling the coil cable off of the distributor, and by plugging a spark plug into it. I had the plug grounded, and when I brushed the jumper on the same ground, the plug gave off a bright blue spark. So the coil is OK.

The issue has been due to having no power at the injection or ignition/distributor.. It continues to baffle me. If I hold both the first and secondary points in the DCE relay closed the pump will work but the car will not start. The 'emergency jumping method of the relay will not start it.

Ingo's latest info on where to jump it, should have started it, but that also was a no go. No power to the pump or distributor.

Pin # 86 is the one that makes all the magic happen but I can not can power to it. I've also had a lot of input from '1986 911 Targa', who like Ingo, is very good at 911 electronics... I'm missing something but have yet to find out exactly what it is.

After today's checks, it appears that it may be in the ECU itself.

Thanks again.

Thanks...I will go and try it out right now... Will get back ASAP.

Fuses and fuse bar photo - '86 Carrera Cab
 

I haven't jumpered anything yet. I'll send this first for you to have a look.

As you may be able see, my TOP 9th, count from the left, has a 16 Gage black wire and the Bottom has one large red wire with a black stripe.

My TOP 10th, count from the left, has two 16 Gage wires - One is black with a purple stripe, and the other is red with a black stripe.

The Bottom of 10: Two of them are a larger red with white stripes; one is solid red, the last - 4th is red with a black stripe.

The TOP 8th, count from the left, has the large red with a yellow stripe and a 16 Gage red with a black stripe.

The Bottom of the 8th, has one 16 Gage solid black wire.

I have none with a brown wire of any Gage at the top nor bottom of the fuse bar.



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You have made this troubleshooting effort overly complex. It should only take 5-10 minutes
(15 at the most) to find the problem if you had followed the explicit instructions of the
many helpful posters. You need to re-read this thread!

Again, do you have a good #30 power at the DME relay? That should have been your starting point. You can eliminate all the fuse efforts by focusing on the DME relay and the #30 power and
jumping it.

Correct. Connect fuse 9 an 10 at the top.

Then run a wire from battery to fuse 10 top and try to start.

Hi Ingo...Unfortunately the relay never 'clicked' when jumping the bottoms of 9 & 10. Jumping from the battery+ to 10 of course was a was a no start, with 9 & 10 jumped.

Is there a way to check 'something' from the secondary ignition/fuel injection stage of the relay? As previously mention, when the points for the pump are manually closed, the pump will turn on. I have held both points closed but also get a 'no start'.

So when you place the jumper between fuse 9 and 10 can you verify that you see power on both with the key in RUN? If yes continue to trace the power to the DME relay stage 1.The next 'way station' is the alarm module. A blk/red wire to pin 1 (term15) on the two-pin connector on the alarm module receives power from the ignition switch and it will come out of the alarm module on pin 4 (87a) on a black wire if no alarm condition is present. So both connectors need to be plugged in. If you eliminate the alarm module you need to jumper pin 1 (term15) to pin 4 (term87a) on the harness to the alarm module.

Ingo

Re: " between fuse 9 and 10 can you verify that you see power on both with the key in RUN?"...Yes, the power is coming from 10 to 9. Both had power but no action on the relay.

The alarm has not been used for years, mainly due to a lost key. On the door, the key slot is vertical. Because it could be the problem, I jumper'd it, as you described, a few days ago.

Can you suggest any thing else to test?


Thanks so much for your input. Much appreciated.

A simple step at this point is to use two paper clips to jumper/bypass the DME relay:
30 to 87 & 30 to 87b on the connector for the DME relay. At this point the engine should
run. If it does, then you would work back to determine why the relay doesn't function, e.g.
wiring/fuses/alarm. If it doesn't, then work forward to determine what can be causing the ECU
to not function, e.g. reversed pickup sensors, bad ECU, etc. You can then verify that power is
on pins 1, 18, 35 of the ECU. It's that simple. It should take 5 minutes at the most to do this.

Sorry for all your wasted effort in possibly being mis-led in troubleshooting in this thread.
Seventy posts in a simple troubleshooting effort is very unfortunate.

I think he did that but did not report any results e.g. the fuel pump runs or the DME now has power. Just said the car didn't start.

O.K. Then he should have focused his efforts there:
1. Are the sensors reversed? Check the sensor voltages to determine that.
2. Is there an injector pulse? Use the LED tester.
3. Does the ICV vibrate?
4. Check for spark. If a spark, use carb cleaner in the intake to start.
5. Find another 3.2 to plug the ECU in, or send it out for testing.

Dave - Rick, thanks again for your input.
All of the above has been done, including numerous other tests.
I have read and applied all of the inputs.

It had been a matter of rechecking everything that was done, including removing the speed and reference sensors. The new O2 and head sensor check out. My old relay that was working including the spare that I have look as new and no cracks etc. can be found in either of them.

The ECU is also as new inside; not even any dust. Under magnification there are no solder flaws. There are a few more re checks to do with the alarm system.

It will come down to a ECU check but I do not no of anyone close by to have checked it out. They are about $850.00 Canadian, which I will spend if that's what it is.

Please understand that 'Ischmitz' fix's these things as a business. His help, including '1986 911 Targa'- a diehard Porsche guy, who is retired electrical engineer, has all 911 electrical manuals, who I communicate back and forth by email, has not as stated in context: "unfortunately you have been provided misleading info' ... It's been the very opposite!

This note in no way is meant to offend you nor anyone else but what you have been suggesting had been posted and tired in several different combinations.

They are just trying to help me check every avenue prior to refurbishing the ECU for, with tax, $650.00 + Canadian.

BTW Dave, I will take contributions if you want to chip in :)

Take care, and and half a good day.

Again, thanks for both of your inputs.

Some great news for me...
 

Some great news for me, at the moment that is, but no prize yet.

Both of the DCE relays are working, one when turning to ACC, and the second one closes when the starter engages. The ICV is now humming away, 'but' I do not have spark at the plugs. It appears that I'm now as close as I can get, at the moment, to hearing it run again.

On the ECU connector:

Power on:
1+

14+
15+

18+
20+
35+ with a smaller amount?...On 34 and 33.

I had one big sigh of relieve after I finally found out what the the cause was for having no 'power'... Of all things, it was due to having dirty points in the the alarm module!.. Crazy eh! It was a 'check' suggestion from '1986 911 Targa'.

Now, if someone won't mind to continue to assist me, I need to know how to check for a 'no spark' issue. It would be much appreciated...Thanks in advance!

I did a Pelican Forum search and found this:

Here you have not checked for grounds:

Have you actually measured the voltage on the sensors, which will verify their proper connections?

You have not checked for an injector pulse (need your LED thing or noid light) here:

Ok, now that the ICV is humming you have a powered DME. Great news. The next checks need to focus on the speed and reference sensors. If they are reversed or their gap isn't correct the engine won't fire.

Checking for the speed sensor and whether it's plugged into the correct socket on the engine tower is very straight forward: Disconnect the DME and measure on the harness connector pin 8 and pin 27 with a voltmeter set to AC. When you crank you should see around 2V AC.

For the reference sensor use you LED test light (I seem to remember you built one) and connect it to pin 25 and pin 26 and check for single flash per revolution.

If both tests check out (and please do them again now) your DME needs to issue fuel and spark signals. If not I'd check for the gap of the reference sensor one more time or something inside the DME is wrong.

Ingo

You can send the ECU to Pelican for testing and/or rebuilding if necessary. The cost from them
should be less than what you posted early, but do a check in the Pelican Parts catalog.

Thanks Ingo...I haven't tried to see if I have 2V AC when cranking since finding the alarms dirty contact-points issue out late this afternoon. I will, for sure, check it out in the morning.

I have though re-pulled the speed sensor so as to make sure that the gap was correct. It was definitely bottoming out on the ring gear. I then tightened the two bolts up on the bracket.

This time around, the second new sensor, I calibrated my old sensors overall length with the 8mm washer glued to it, and the length of it was spot on. Once I had the new sensor back in, I tested it with the diode that I had soldered a 220 ohm watt resistor onto...It did the trick. The speed sensor, when turning the motor over, lit up very brightly when the diode pins were in 27 and 8 on each revolution, and the reference sensor, on pins 25 and 26 were not so bright, which one would expect. The reference sensor, as you know, is in its own sleeve which allows it to sit at the correct distance from the flywheel once the speed sensor is set correctly.

I did run a continuity test on the car's harness for the three sensors, which also confirmed that they were the correct plugs for the speed and reference sensors at the DCE's connector pins, and in their correct slot on the bracket. Head- Speed- Reference.

Like you just mentioned, it may be within the ECU... I checked around today see if the Porsche dealer that I go to could help me out, but they never had a classic model. They recently had three, but they must have sold them. If I need to have it checked out, the best place for me will be to send it to CA... I'm first though going to replace the alarm module just to make sure, that during my DCE relay tests, that I didn't somehow accidently burn a capacitor, or the likes of, out. That also may be the current reason why that I have no spark.

I'll make a post after I try for the 2 V AC in the morning.

Thanks 'again' for your info.

Ah man, sorry to read your troubles.

If I may suggest, start a thread if a Pelican in your area with a 3.2 can allow you to place your DME into their car to eliminate it as a culprit. Note, your DME into their car, not the other way around, if your car is the issue it may damage their DME.

I have lent my car to many local Pelicans to test their DME, I have not had an issue doing this.

Jim

Howdy Jim...Yes, the 'no start' did become quite a frustrating thing to find...To say the least. Alarm contact-points of all things!...One for your notebook eh :)

Thanks for the good suggestion...I'll make a post right now.

Take care Bud!

BTW Jim...What years of 3.2's ECU's should I ask for?