Trying to buy a 73S hot rod -- need help

[911heaven]

Hello everyone,

I need some good advice, and a few good men. I know there are loads of them on this forum. I have the chance to buy a 73S hot rod dismantled as per engine and trans. The motor is not original, the transmission is. Otherwise the car is completely gone from original years ago, and bringing it back to original looks to be cost prohibitive. My primary questions are about the motor that is included with the car. Secondary question may be am I going down the wrong road? There are issues with the car via body, especially front pan and rocker panels which are spewing rust.

My question about the motor -- which is on a stand in a different city, and has full on headers attached and comes with Weber carbs -- is this motor worth its salt? I decoded it to be a 74S 2.7 motor from this forum thread on decoding engines. The number is 6342527. I failed while there in that city to check the other code # 911/03 for instance so I don’t have that momentarily. What I also discovered on the decoding thread was that mid-year 74-77 motors had issues which I am well aware of. Does this motor fall into that category? The motor has also been modified to 3.0 liter, and I don’t have any details about that since the price issue hasn’t been discussed in detail. However, it is a friend of mine and is time we will get to that point. I’m playing dumb due to the rust issues on the car and the lack of originality which I’d hoped to be there on my first viewing about 2 months ago. Since then I have given up on that idea, and so it will be a hot rod. The question remains still, am I going down the wrong path? Like most of you gentlemen, I always like to buy a car that has potential, buy it as cheap as possible, take the challenge and make a hot rod. The best part is to have fun repairing it and driving it and hopefully someday sell it at a profit just as the next challenge/purchase stares you in the face. This one is in my face and I have to pursue or not.

Just quickly some details on the body –

1. Certain 73S coupe, no sunroof, no rear wiper, no AC. Original white color, now a different color inside and out (a shade of orange), I don’t want to post pix for now since I’m in negotiation stage, and it will take some time.

2. The front fenders are fiberglass, front bumper 73RS or similar, rear wing is 964RS, car is lowered down with later mod wheels and lower prof tires. Interior is bare with no back seats, RS race type door panels and a couple of race type Recaro seats. Car is stuck between two other cars, inside a warehouse which made it impossible to inspect it perfectly. What made it worse was though the front hood popped open, the latch is stuck. I couldn’t even get into the front to check the VIN no. On my next visit I’ll get there. Sorry for the lack of details, but the owner is in a different city, and his mother who is in my city wanted to go out to lunch. She cut me short. I hope you gentlemen can give me some of that expert advice and some direction. I’m sorry for the lack of necessary details on engine and body. With what I’ve described so far, can you come to some analysis on whether the engine is a good hot rod motor, or is the body with motor a good bet to carry on with at the right price?

Thanks in advance,
Bernard

[zedsn]

Sounds like the motor is a replacement 3.0. I don't believe you can make a 2.7 into a 3.0. The motor is worth it just for parts and may have nice cams in it as well. The carbs are for sure worth some money and if they are webers go and get the motor as well. Can't comment on the car because can't see any photos of it and don't know how much rust is underneath but if it is reasonable and you want it buy the whole thing including the motor and keep it a hot rod then I say go for it.

[75 911s]

The motor is a 74 911s Motor. Mahle and Andial did make 3.0 conversions for this motor one for CIS and one for Carbs.

Sounds like a really hot motor. If it's in good shape -its a very expensive motor to build.

The car is set up for track or wannabe track. Which means no creature comforts and less streetability.

Do a search on popping the front hood when the cable is broken. Several good threads on that.

Rust would be my primary concern, then engine health. Why was it pulled and put on a stand in a different city? Perhaps the owner has all the original parts that they took off? those would be worth thousands.

The main concern with the midyear engines has been the magnesium case and it's vulnerability in regard to emissions controls that came in 75. This motor would have been mostly immune from those issues, however it is still magnesium so it could have problems with pulled head studs - though those issues seem to be overstated in the community somewhat. However, when the mag case has been bored out, it further weakens the areas near the head stud. So checking the build to see if case savers or dilvar etc were used. Compression can be an issue with a 3.0 conversion as well. you may need a guru to tune the motor for you if it's a runner.

There's a lot you could inspect on the motor if you had access. The 2.7 is a great motor and a lot of people like it because of the high rev and sound. The 3.0 conversion is something you need to check on. Who built it? what parts? When? how many miles? Worst case scenario you could part that engine out and invest in a 3.0 or 3.2 motor since it isn't numbers matching anyway.

BTW the VIN is on the drivers A pillar as well. With the glass fenders it's a midyear backdate suspect. Probably a 74 as there seem to be less sunroof 74s out there.

[javadog]

Well, I would probably not have much interest in a rusty '73 hotrod. Here's why...

It seems like most sellers think their early cars are worth too much, as they look at the values of the top condition cars. Only stock, restored cars are worth the big bucks and it takes a fortune to completely go through one. Modified cars seldom bring the money it took to build them, so going that route is usually a recipe for losing money. It's usually more cost effective to buy a finished hot rod, than to build one.

Then, you are in Japan. getting serious work done on an early 911 in the US isn't hard to do; finding similar shops in Japan would probably be much more difficult and much more expensive.

As for the motor, it's hard to build a 3.0 out of a 2.7, so verify that before you believe anything the seller tells you. There's nothing wrong with an early mag case, it just takes a fortune to get one to be straight and stable enough to build a motor out of. Lots of people do a basic rebuild, reassemble the thing and find that they have all sorts of problems. I'm thinking you could burn up $4-5k on just getting the case where I'd be happy with it, prior to reassembling the rest of the motor. Probably not something you'd get done in Japan, either, so factor that extra cost into it.

If I were building a hotrod, I'd start with a cheaper mid-year, or an SC. Preferably one that wasn't rusty or incomplete, just something that had been parked a long time.

Lastly, you already have another project. Hard to get one finished if you are working on two...

JR

PS; I sent you a PM and an email on a couple other things.

[911heaven]

Thank you zedsn, 75 911s and JR for the great insights and cool advice especially on the motor in question and the car itself too. Hopeing I can reply in one foul swoop just to save time and space. Thanks to each of you for the great info on this type of motor or spec/mod analysis.

It's so true that I need to do a bit more inquiry about the motor in quesiton as per build spec and history. I haven't been too inquisitive thus far in order to not seem so interested. I'm not sure that I'm so keen to build a hot rod per say, just only to say that this car is already on that track and I can't change that. I would only try to give a low ball offer and hope to get it in time; hence, I have not gone out of my way to act overly interested. JR has confirmed a few reasons why I shouldn't be interested or anxious about it. I suppose the main source of interest was that it is a 73S car, yet if it isn't original, or close then it ain't necessarily worth its weight in gold. Speaking of that, I thought a better bet would be to try and buy an original 73S from my friend in So. CA (a college buddie and close friend) if he will sell it at the right price. This car is matching numbers, original and unrestored. It is silver now but original gold color, which was/is still unpopular? That rarity on color may become a blessing in reverse in time, but I don't know about that. Still, that car would cost me 60k if I were lucky as is, then all the costs of getting it back to clean and pretty. At least that car wouldn't have the rust issues that this one in Japan has, not to mention lack of originality.

Therefore, I'll leave this idea at rest and this thread until I can get a more detailed analysis of the components, history and body condition. This will take some time so no rush for me or anyone trying to help. Thanks so much for the help so far!!




I just forgot to mention something about the Webers when I posted so I'll do that, also some other engines that I looked over in the storage, none of which reached out and grabbed me, though I haven't decoded them yet. There were three sets of Carbs laid out on the table for me to choose from, two sets which have been rebuilt, all wrapped up in plastic. I'll list them here with what ever numbers I took from them.

1. Webers destined to go on the motor in question 3.0 liter,

Tipo 40 IDA 3C F1, 185/130 jet 46mm top opening/and same at bottom

note -- these say weber on them but do not say made in Italy (overhauled)

2. Webers, say made in Italy, 140/170 jet size, 46mm top and 32 bottom hole
Tipo 4D1DA 301 and 4010A3C1, 1013 (overhauled)

3. Zenith 73T carbs same size as NO. 2 above

air cleaners also included with which ever option I choose.




Just to mention to 75 911s that I did check the windscreen pillar for the VIN that day, but it wasn't there. This to me means it is not a US car, but a ROW car. I only remember that in 2001-2 I bought a 73RS over the phone, sight unseen from a broker here while on a trip home to USA. I said check the number there!! He said it wasn't there. Later I discovered that it wasn't. Lucky for me it was a real RS, but it was then that I noticed US cars had the VIN also on the windscreen pillar and the ones that didn't were not US issued, or so I think I'm correct. Someone might correct me on this.

Thanks again so much everyone for the great help and expertise,

Bernard

[javadog]

You are correct, the provision for the VIN number on the A pillar was a US requirement.

JR