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Mighty Meatlocker Turbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxrken View Post
The other thing to address a faster cool down would be the evaporator fan. My 13 year old 540's AC fan can push you back against the seat on high. That black on black car quickly cools down the largish sedan cabin. On the other hand, my 930's (brand new) Bosch evaporator fan- even with the improved center outlets in the dash- just doesn't move as much air as it sounds like it's doing. My vent temps with extra fender condensers can go low 30s and can get the cabin downright cold, but I wish my fan moved 50% more air.
Some speculation on my part, as I am not an air dynamics expert (though some say that I'm full of hot air! ), but I bet the major limiting factor to air movement is the size and shape of the 911 a/c ducting (including the intake ducting and evaporator box itself). For example, I have an evaporator blower motor from GM trucks and SUVs installed (as you know, since I brag about it often), have ensured zero air leaks between evap box and dash vents, as well as evaporator intake ducting, and even with that "overkill for the size of the 911 cabin" fan motor, the air movement is not going to make anyone say "holy shart" (the air temp will, buttofcourse). The evap blower in my 1990 Ford box truck moves way more air out of the vents, and I bet the motor is almost the same as what I'm using in the 930.

Last edited by Rawknees'Turbo; 08-03-2016 at 06:41 PM..
Old 08-01-2016, 06:49 PM
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Ron... I know your vent temp so there's no question you've got performance. Since you have monster blower installed, am wondering about volume-of-air-flow through evap... There must be a point of diminishing returns---in other words at some air speed (through evap) evap's efficiency would seem to flat line (or perhaps decline.) What say you about this?! Am asking because I've been considering up'ing air flow via your path. Another curiosity moving ahead with this is cabin noise. An older stock system---talkin '80ish---makes a good deal of noise IMHO. Pushing even more air through evap & ducts... am estimating there's an increase in AC noise to be accepted. What's your take on this?!
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Old 08-02-2016, 09:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #102 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxrken View Post
The other thing to address a faster cool down would be the evaporator fan. My 13 year old 540's AC fan can push you back against the seat on high. That black on black car quickly cools down the largish sedan cabin. On the other hand, my 930's (brand new) Bosch evaporator fan- even with the improved center outlets in the dash- just doesn't move as much air as it sounds like it's doing. My vent temps with extra fender condensers can go low 30s and can get the cabin downright cold, but I wish my fan moved 50% more air.
Im sure you are aware but the Grifith upgraded fan motor moves ALOT more air than the stock one. It is considerably louder as well.

According to their website, ALOT is approximately equal to 30% I guess.

https://griffiths.com/product/911-930-kuehl-wirbelsturm-evap-blower-motor-70-85/
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Old 08-02-2016, 09:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #103 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
Im sure you are aware but the Grifith upgraded fan motor moves ALOT more air than the stock one. It is considerably louder as well. According to their website, ALOT is approximately equal to 30% I guess.
Thanks, and sorry for the thread jack but yes I spoke to Charlie about that fan- my car being an 1986 required sourcing a pre-86 squirrel cage and evap box top in the secondary market to use it. I actually spent one night sifting through the classifieds and eBay before I saw a squirrel. At the end of the day I can't see dropping another almost $500 for the fan motor and the used evaporator box bits for somewhat more flow. If my evap fan motor seized, and I had a pre-86, that is the only motor I would buy.

[/HIJACK]
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Old 08-03-2016, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
[/HIJACK]
I've forgotten what this thread is about

Reading the original post it is about an electric compressor. Since the compressor is not the issue in air cooled 911's is this a product with no market?
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Old 08-03-2016, 02:48 PM
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Rick,
Please explain for the early 911 cars.

Scott
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Old 08-03-2016, 06:28 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #106 (permalink)
 
Mighty Meatlocker Turbo
 
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^^^

I'm sure that what Rick is referring to is that the belt driven compressors used in these cars (even the heavy, vibrating, and power using Yorks of the very early models) do a fine job pumping refrigerant, and that the weakest link in the systems is lack of condenser capacity and efficiency (no decent frontal area to mount a condenser, unlike in most, front engined cars).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Discseven View Post
Ron... I know your vent temp so there's no question you've got performance. Since you have monster blower installed, am wondering about volume-of-air-flow through evap... There must be a point of diminishing returns---in other words at some air speed (through evap) evap's efficiency would seem to flat line (or perhaps decline.) What say you about this?! Am asking because I've been considering up'ing air flow via your path. Another curiosity moving ahead with this is cabin noise. An older stock system---talkin '80ish---makes a good deal of noise IMHO. Pushing even more air through evap & ducts... am estimating there's an increase in AC noise to be accepted. What's your take on this?!
I agree, Karlicious - at some point, more air moved through the same sized evaporator would probably result in worsening performance (higher vent temps and less dehumidifying action). At some point, evaporator size would need to be increased, and that really isn't a practical option with these cars.

And no doubt about the noise aspect. I remember Willard saying how cabin fan noise was a real concern of his, butt I don't care about such things if the system is blowing frosty air (plus, can't hear the fan over the blaring Slipknot, so all good here!)

Last edited by Rawknees'Turbo; 08-03-2016 at 06:43 PM..
Old 08-03-2016, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavaria911 View Post
Rick,
Please explain for the early 911 cars.
Scott
If your early 911 has AC you are better off with the engine driven compressor. If it doesn't and you install the evaporator, condenser, plumbing, fans and duct work you are still better off with the engine driven compressor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
The system is fully contained in the luggage bay and weighs under 30 lbs.
I'm pretty sure the "System" is just the compressor and controller. If you could put a 22000 BTU "window unit" in the trunk it would be a revolutionary design. Typically this size window unit consumes 2500 Watts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
The cooling output is almost double that of the factory 964 a/c at idle.
So minimum 964 output = max electric compressor output.
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Old 08-03-2016, 07:57 PM
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Our complete system currently weighs 30 lbs. It hasn't been weight reduced yet either!

Since our system deletes the large washer bottle, our test car weighs only 13 lbs more with the A/C as it now has a smaller washer bottle. Any extra weight is at the front of the car too.

In 2016 the 1960's factory 911 A/C design looks ridiculous. It was constrained by the technology of the time but things have moved on.

We're booking up a climatic chamber so I'll keep you all posted.
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Old 08-03-2016, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
Our complete system currently weighs 30 lbs. It hasn't been weight reduced yet either!

Since our system deletes the large washer bottle, our test car weighs only 13 lbs more with the A/C as it now has a smaller washer bottle. Any extra weight is at the front of the car too.

In 2016 the 1960's factory 911 A/C design looks ridiculous. It was constrained by the technology of the time but things have moved on.

We're booking up a climatic chamber so I'll keep you all posted.
Johhny, your 1977 backdated RSR tribute. AC-plumbing-removed, already-washer-bottle-free, short-flight-from-Heathrow-to-Charlotte, clutter-free-trunk, 3.2 test mule awaits.

My WAY over budget /backdate/lightweight/hot rod.
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Old 08-04-2016, 04:24 AM
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Jonny,
I would like to be a test bed for your system and report on product operation.
Let me know if you are willing to provide a sample product.
Maryland is pretty darn hot and humid in the summer months for a 1970 air cooled, non-AC car.
PM me anytime.
Vr,
Scott
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Old 08-25-2016, 06:35 PM
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Mighty Meatlocker Turbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post

In 2016 the 1960's factory 911 A/C design looks ridiculous.
It looks pretty good when pumping out high 20sF vent temps in upper 90s ambient - ridiculous in a good way!
Old 08-25-2016, 06:39 PM
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Full scale automotive climate chamber booked for Wednesday!

We will have a standard A/C equipped 964 in the cell for comparison.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:52 PM
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:13 PM
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
The COP for the compressor means we get twice the cooling output power for the input power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny H View Post
40A is not a massive amount of current. .
Does that work out to be 3200 BTUs? Is that your design target?
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:35 AM
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Does that work out to be 3200 BTUs? Is that your design target?
The design target is to provide a level of comfort to make driving a 911 in hot weather a pleasurable experience.

Headline compressor BTU is not the full story for a number of reasons.

Here's my missus' 2016 Range Rover Evoque with full climate vs our 911 system today. Heat soaked car 55 deg C on dash top. Cabin temperature measured in a shady spot below the dashboard.

Green and Blue. 2016 Range Rover
Orange and Yellow. Electric 911 system.

All temperatures are celsius.



Even on full whack, the new Range Rover's lowest vent temperatures is 8 degrees C (46 F) with full fan when measured with a calibrated thermocouple inside the vent. With a low speed fan, the temperature reduces to 6 degrees (42F).
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Old 08-26-2016, 01:11 PM
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Mighty Meatlocker Turbo
 
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I wonder why the Range Rover's a/c performance is so weak? I have a 1992 Infiniti beater, and the vent temps are in the lower 30s F on 90+ degree days. Not as good as my modded 930 system, but close.
Old 08-26-2016, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
I wonder why the Range Rover's a/c performance is so weak? I have a 1992 Infiniti beater, and the vent temps are in the lower 30s F on 90+ degree days. Not as good as my modded 930 system, but close.
vent temps mean jack ****. You can blow cool breath of God and if you don't have a proper recirculation, means nothing.
Old 08-26-2016, 03:38 PM
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I've never been in a car that didn't move the air enough to render cold vent temps useless, so don't know what you mean, bub.

I've been in ones with lots of air movement and not-so-cold vent temps = lame performance! Getcha suuummm!
Old 08-26-2016, 03:46 PM
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