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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl View Post
Don't expect a strong joint with a low temperature brazing material such as 350F; that is only good for You Tube beer can stunts.

Ideally you'd want to either:
A) TIG some sections or spots equally spaced and then fill/bond the joint with a higher temperature material,or
B) use a few 90 degree angles, equally spaced, riveted, and then fill/bond the joint with a higher temperature material.
"B" will be the easiest because of the thickness of the aluminum sheet you are using.

In terms of higher temperature materials something like This link you will find helpful.

Once again, on the flat fans you need to maintain a minimum distance between the inlet side of the fan and any surface adjacent to that flow side otherwise you will not have enough mass (air flow). You can test this by either observing the amp draw on the motor or placing a anemometer on the outlet side to measure velocity.

And, plastic fans and motor windings don't like direct radiant heat.
Was thinking same concerning 350 dF temp weld---I saw beer can stunt too. Going to test some different thicknesses and metals types to see how it handles/bonds. Surly TIG is way to go but... storage space in condo rules every hardware buy I make. Alumiweld (730 dF) performs well on thick material---1/8" and over. Is very strong and harder than base metal.

Link is excellent reading. Thanks CG!

Understood on fan and surface proximity. (I'm heading in direction that will potentially put fan ahead of rear wheel with a collection air-bucket. Air would be channeled through smooth bore duct to condenser air-bucket. Point being to supply condenso minimal-temp air---IMHO this air is best sourced from ahead of rear wheel. Having tested bilge blower with long, "high friction" duct connected to condenso air-bucket... there was air flow from the outlet side of condenser... albeit not much. With that crap config as reference, a high volume Spal and smooth bore duct should deliver far greater air volume to condenser. 6" duct would be preferable to 4" but some compromise is necessary to finish this before the New Year.)

Will measure cavity ahead of rear wheel today to see if there's adequate space for 12" Spal connected to collection bucket.

Mike... a small Spal could be fit into a bucket connected to condenso. CFM drops measurably as fan diameter decreases. To position a large fan inside bucket would require new bucket---am attempting to use existing bucket. Also, with no large fan in or outside condenso air-bucket, the existing bucket can be positioned in wheel well to maximize space between air-outlet side of condenso and car. All this is fodder feeding the idea to position a large fan ahead of rear wheel.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discseven View Post

Understood on fan and surface proximity. (I'm heading in direction that will potentially put fan ahead of rear wheel with a collection air-bucket. Air would be channeled through smooth bore duct to condenser air-bucket. Point being to supply condenso minimal-temp air---IMHO this air is best sourced from ahead of rear wheel.
I'm going to wager having a flat fan design located in the forward section of rear fender and trying to direct that air through a tube to the condenser in a box behind the rear tire ..... will result is a cfm flow that is less than 1/2 of the fan's factory static spec. Besides the pressure drop related to the vent tube diameter, twists and turns, its simply the nature of flat fans. You could ponder a centrifugal blower however most you are going to find that could fit in the forward section are limited to about 350 cfm.

But... its fun to play with.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discseven View Post
Be interesting to see pics of both units Mike. Am curious how they're configured.
Dual 993 a/c condenser system

First picture. You can see Pato9911's design as well, we were independently but geographically similarly designing from 993 condenser systems

Also, others who ahve run 10-11 inch fans:
Barrier Hose Length
Retrofit of 993 AC condenser

I'll tell you what, I have the old 993 condenser (wore a hole in it, instant trash) and the unused 12x14 PFC condenser in my garage. This weekend, I will get you images of each side by side, so you can see the size variations. From that, you can look at the fan images, and deduce what you will from that.

I can even send you the busted condenser if you want, it's nothing but scrap now.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl View Post
I'm going to wager having a flat fan design located in the forward section of rear fender and trying to direct that air through a tube to the condenser in a box behind the rear tire ..... will result is a cfm flow that is less than 1/2 of the fan's factory static spec. Besides the pressure drop related to the vent tube diameter, twists and turns, its simply the nature of flat fans. You could ponder a centrifugal blower however most you are going to find that could fit in the forward section are limited to about 350 cfm.

But... its fun to play with.
12" Spal won't fit ahead of wheel. 11" is a squeeze. 10" fits. But collection bucket would turn air 90 degrees right away, crush it down to 4" tube, then there are 2 more 45 degree turns and another 90 inside the condenser bucket---agree with you that all that plus the duct surface is going to sap CFM at the condenser. Your estimate of half would put CFM at the condenser with the 10" Spal at 497.

Centrifs... yeah, if unit fits, it's low CFM.

RC jet "blowers" are a possibility with a few challenges to overcome.



Good news = Close to 4" diameter size exists. More than adequate "thrust" exists. Bad news = all these units require a speed controller (that's the third wire / yellow.) Moisture? Noise? Durability? Anyone who has experience flying an EDF---need your HELP! Please comment.

Wide variety of these things---cheap plastic versions to pricey works of art.





If issues with jet engine program can be resolved simply... would seem interesting to test.


.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
Dual 993 a/c condenser system

First picture. You can see Pato9911's design as well, we were independently but geographically similarly designing from 993 condenser systems

Also, others who ahve run 10-11 inch fans:
Barrier Hose Length
Retrofit of 993 AC condenser

I'll tell you what, I have the old 993 condenser (wore a hole in it, instant trash) and the unused 12x14 PFC condenser in my garage. This weekend, I will get you images of each side by side, so you can see the size variations. From that, you can look at the fan images, and deduce what you will from that.

I can even send you the busted condenser if you want, it's nothing but scrap now.
I remember that thread now Mike. Was very interested in seeing how you were going to position units. Took a scan through it now. Will return later to reread. Also going to dive in other 2 links---thanks!

Getting images will be much appreciated---all input helps. Busted condenser... hold the consideration on that please. Not sure what I'd do with it at this moment. I'll pay shipping of course. TY

With config you have, and if I may stick my nose in, what v-temps to ambient are you getting?
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:15 PM
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Yo' KinkyKarl, perhaps you can run a suitable diameter stove pipe up through the top of the quarter panel, and position the stack just below the level of the Targuuuu's roof line; that way, the swirling vortex of high pressure air up there (made more pronounced by the Targuuuu's slab roof) will suck the air up and out of the stack - no fan needed, Bro!

Just one wild boar's suggestion!

PS - love your current "mad scientist" project, Mr. Kink!

Old 07-14-2017, 06:32 PM
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^^^ Let's test on your 9MPGsmurbo Rono. You cut 4" hole in fender... I'll come over with ducting and Vodka.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:32 AM
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Below, 4" OD carbon fiber turbine (comes without motor.) 12v ON/OFF 18,000 static RPM motor. Is possible to run higher RPM with turbine but for the sake of potentially extending durability of fan and motor... am choosing 18k as starting point. Minor mods are necessary to combine these unrelated parts. Good news = much simpler mods with turbine compared to building intake bucket to fit Spal for ahead of rear wheel positioning, fit's existing 4" duct plan, more thrust than Spal (potentially). Bad news = not sure what 18,000 static rpm will diminish to in actual operation and so what actual thrust will be (am guestimating thrust being greater than Spal... if necessary can change motor later to improve thrust if needed), unknown durability of parts (operation, moisture intake, debris intake), unknown noise level of turbine. Will think on this briefly before ordering parts. Pro/con input is welcome.



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Old 07-15-2017, 07:05 AM
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Today's notes:

Dad911 and SCadaddle in a secondary thread provided insight to workings of RC turbofans, engines, motors and controls. Also insight on 12v motor seen above. Bottom line = best to stick with almost complete jet config. (Getting air to condenser has just increased in cost.)

EDF setup requires turbine assembly, brushless motor, ESC, and receiver/controller which in this case will be replaced by a servo tester. Whether servo tester can be set once and buried along with ESC or if it has to be adjusted with each turn ON of the AC has yet to be known. If it cannot be set once and buried... this path is questionable. If it can be set once, I'll go down this path. If there's an issue with servo tester, perhaps John (who designed the Arduino programing for system) can hack servo tester so it can be set once & buried.

Calls to turbine & motor resource Monday are needed. Point being to question moisture intake---will it ruin motor?
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Old 07-15-2017, 02:03 PM
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EDF Water Notes:

According to "expert," brushless EDF fan motor will endure high humidity and light rain---this being considered as system, even with splash-shield, is surly going to injest water on rainy days. Must keep ESC dry and cooled. Final outstanding question is EDF noise. Even if highly insulated and set at optimal speed for system which is likely not full throttle... noise is potential killer. Only one way to answer this question. Set up is $150 to $200 range.

Blower Test:

Tested existing boat-blower with smooth bore ducting. Is measurably MORE air exiting condenser with this duct compared to accordion type duct. Ducting here is not configured as it would be in fender but length and total turns are close proximity. In working config, fan would likely position over wheel. Wondering if second blower (same kind as existing)... would that work to increase airflow slightly? This blower = $40 with shipping (per unit.)



Static:



Blower ON. No internal deflector:



ON with internal deflector:



Applied deflector as positioned inside. With refinement, deflector will get air into upper corners.

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Old 07-17-2017, 09:10 AM
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I can see the biggest problem with the turbofan as the balance. 18K RPM is screaming. a tiny speck of debris or dirt will cause it to wobble I bet. I have zero real world experience with the turbofan. I know my condensers in the rear fender are dirty after 10 years of driving and countless rainstorms. Driving to the Salt Lake City Parade we were on non interstate highways with many side roads that were dirt. It was raining and every car or truck that came off the dirt road brought mud onto the road. It was a situation where windshield squirters were flat necessary. The temp outside was still HOT and we had the AC on. No issues whatsoever. The Spal fans are tough.

I do hose out the condensers when I wash the car.

Bottom line, I suspect dirt and debris will be a real challenge for a 18K RPM fan. Loving your thinking outside the box, inside the box, and down the pipe.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:34 AM
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^^^ Loving your spec thinking Glen! Assuming this path is taken, you just saved a failure for sure! MUCH CREDIT going your way---thanks!

Air filter is needed. Adds item cleaning/replacement to AC program. Have to consider whether such maintenance is desirable.
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Old 07-17-2017, 11:03 AM
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EDF notes:
  • 12v car is not going to supply necessary voltage to operate planned on 100 mm EDF unit/motor (which runs on 22-30 volts)---I've not researched a voltage booster
  • 70 mm EDF is recommended with 12v power supply
  • Best to use metal housing and metal or carbon fiber turbine---for durability in this application
  • Filter is absolutely necessary as debris will damage/destroy turbine---if turbine goes, so too can housing & motor
  • Acoustically the fewer blades on a turbine the more it cuts the air---more noisy it is
  • 9-12 blade turbine has more of a woosh sound and not much acoustic difference between 9 and 12 blades
  • Insulation will reduce turbine noise volume---how much cannot be said
  • Temp ceiling of EDF motor is 160dF. Higher than that and motor begins to operate poorly
  • ESC (electronic speed controller) needs to be rated higher than motor---see "set up guide" on sellers website

Is far more "interesting" than initially anticipated.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:24 PM
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Turbine Blower Conclusion

Using high quality EDF turbine will require fine particle air filter. K&E has some nice conical-canister units. Cost to set up proof of concept in this case is, by comparison, costly. Assuming system works, filter cleaning would be added maintenance. Not a big deal but, if same end can be accomplished without adding maintenance process, that would be preferable.

Staying with a brushless motor makes sense for durability. (I've seen exposed brushless motors work underwater---they're used for submersible propulsion. Of course salt water will corrode parts. Point is... some injected moisture in this application shouldn't be the end of motor.)

HP makes turbine blower cartridges used to cool large computer servers. Model: HP 486206-001 C7000 (below). Motor is brushless---can tell from 3 wires. Turbine within is zinc... eliminating need for fine particle air filter IMHO. Filter planned for this stout turbine is #10 stainless mesh positioned over intake. Credit to Glen for "filter" thinking. HP blower housing is 70mm. Will mount this inside 4" OD 1/4" wall aluminum pipe section. This might work to aide in sound dampening... or might increase acoustics---not sure. Will insulate exterior of blower area and ducting. If you're an acoustic engineer... your input regarding the minimization of turbine frequencies would be most welcome.




  • Speed: 35000 rpm
  • Rated Voltage: DC 12-15V
  • Rated current: 14-17A
  • Maximum power: 300W-380W
  • Maximum thrust: 1200g
  • KV value: 3100KV
  • Maximum speed: 52000RPM
  • Number of poles: 6
  • Winding connection: Y-type 5-wire and around
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:11 PM
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That sure looks like a very complex possible solution for a simple problem. I sure would not expect long term reliability in the conditions cars have to survive in. I have had my 911 parked on black asphalt parking lots for hours on days it is over 100 with ground temps of 130+. I have driven it in sub zero temperatures. I have been in day long drives with rain road slime. After 10 years of heavy use, the dual Kuehl condensers in my fenders are working just fine. The fans still work and the AC still will keep me cool on 100 degrees days. Last year we drove it 5,500 miles in two weeks. The AC was on almost all the time.

I am fascinated by your engineering abut is seems to be a Rube Goldberg very complex system to do what proven technology does with great ease.

Carry on, I am enjoying your designing and engineering.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:39 AM
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^^^ Yeah... you're right-on Glen. There's no justification from a certain perspective for much of what's going on here. I go where I do with design-build because... it's my favorite opiate. Good to hear you're enjoying the journey.
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:18 AM
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Aluminum Brazing Comparison

730 dF flowing rod is left. 350 dF on right.



350 rod uses a flux that when it boils... metal is at temp and rod's applied. Vapors are notably toxic---Cadmium's in this program. Am noob brazer completely unpracticed with 350 dF process---hence the mess. Also got lazy here... laid rod down on seam. Controlling heat is the trick---too much and flux chars and there's no weld. Despite 350 dF temp, this union is solid. Am considering this a "heated chemical weld."



Same braze brushed slightly.



730 dF rod on "dirty" (unbrushed) metal. Dragged rod along this seam. Drag speed controls weld width. Union is solid. Of course both these welds cannot be compared to tig.



Back side bleed.



Propane torch comparison... below is ON/OFF valve with flame size adjustment, external striker ignition. Two problems with this when dealing with thin metal. Focused flame/heat is tough on aluminum. Also, this torch has no pressure regulator so, tilt/invert tank so liquid reaches valve... flameout results.



Got pressure regulated Bernzomatic TS4000 with auto ignite incorporated. There's no flame size adjustment with this tourch---it's ON... or OFF. (There is a flame adjustment version.) Flame is consistent at any tank angle. This type flame disperses heat better into thin sheet aluminum. With 730 dF rod material, metal is heated---not rod. Rod metal becomes brittle & useless when heated directly.




All needed parts are now ordered. While waiting on delivery... will set up air bucket in fender well.

Two known questions exist...
1. Will 30amp electronic speed controller (ESC) with a battery eliminator circuit (BEC) and servo tester operate HP turbine blower as expected---expection = when AC turns ON... turbine blower comes on at predefined speed. Seems simple enough () but am not electrowizzz.
2. Will planned insulation quiet HP turbine down to reasonable level?
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:04 AM
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HP server cooling unit just received. Max diameter of intake is 70mm.







Electric panel probably serves to convert 120v to around 12v and for blower's speed control. Am using none of this. Speed control will be managed by Turnigy 40a ECS with servo tester to set speed. When those parts are in, will program ECS first then connect system to car batt for test run.



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Old 07-22-2017, 12:59 PM
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Condenser/air-bucket mounting brackets. Wing bracket that attaches to fender seam has yet to be made. Will decide on measures for that piece while test fitting.



Bottom brackets attached. Unit tilts forward and leans into car.



First fit. Is positioned as far back as possible with minimal clearance at rear. 12" x 15" condenser would be possible. (This is 12" x 14".)





Seeing how to get duct as far from wheel-top as possible. Is distorted out-of-round to push up as far up as possible.



Checking forward duct fit---intake filter area. Filter will be perforated aluminum sheet. 1/8" perfs. Plan is to mount stand-off bracket (to secure intake duct area) to that protruding area of car.



Foil molding. Am getting clearance for debris screen set-up (to protect exposed fin-side of condenser.)



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Last edited by Discseven; 07-23-2017 at 01:12 PM..
Old 07-23-2017, 01:07 PM
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Foil mold... doesn't look like much from this perspective.



This shows the wanted dimensions. Also shows why mounting a Spal was not working... there's 1.28" of air space at the rear. Almost 2.5" at front.

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Old 07-23-2017, 01:48 PM
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