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Quote:
Originally Posted by db_cooper View Post
Just my opinion..could be the system was over-charged with refrigerant. What happens is liquid refrigerant gets to the compressor rather than gas..and liquid will not compress. In the trade it is called "slugging" and will damage the compressor.

This "slugging" condition causes the compressor to over-heat or lock-up. Over-heated compressors will blacken the internals. The blown out piston rings and a damaged center ball back inside the compressor are likely seen too.
DB... appreciate the input. I was careful when charging in order to keep accurate tabs on 134 that went into system---goal being to find optimal charge weight in ozs for my system's config. This is highest pressure I ran that I recorded... and only for a test (a few minutes.) Too much refrigerant = not good performance at vent. Believe PS cut off triggers at 354 psi or somewhere around there---not sure.

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Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2
Prior: '77 Copper 924. '73 Black 914. '74 White Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930. '79 Anthracite 930.

Last edited by Discseven; 08-21-2016 at 03:51 AM..
Old 08-18-2016, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl View Post
System was not overcharged with refrigerant initially and probably not later.
The low side pressures readings noted were acceptable evap core temperature;
gas was getting back to the compressor, not liquid. The TEV would have to be enlarged beyond its normal aperture for liquid not to flash off in the evap core.
And, I don't recall any significant periods of time Disc ran the system with excessive low side pressures.

Unless.... by error, someone at one time charged by liquid through the low side of the compressor, which 'could' bend a reed, however I don't recall Dr Disc doing that.

The bent reed probably did not come like that when the compressor was new.
Depending upon which way the reed was bent, or if there are a set of reeds (more common with swash plate denso rather than wobble plate sanden designs) you might guess what smacked it. However the whole reed, whole contamination issue, is behind him.

The dirty swab of the drier port is normal on a system that old. There were no significant fines or debris in the 200 page thread.

Time to move on Disc, new parts or parts you can be 100% sure are clean.
As far as the gauge flutter, which can be caused by air more often than a reed Disc... did you attempt to use a different gauge someone loaned you, a glycerine filled unit, and was there a difference in flutter?

If you reed the history, he updated his system years back with a compressor that had been previously used. Then there was 200 pages of charges and a later seal replacement.
The patient (compressor) simply died on the table due to too many procedures.

Time to move on Disc, new parts or parts you can be 100% sure are clean.
Nobody talks detail like you CG. Your input is always excellent... mucho TY! Also, your recollection is scary spot on.

My flogging the dead horse... of course. Nothing dies in my world without my tearing into it for the sake of greater understanding. And... sharing all this chit has purpose---so we can all bene.

Am indeed movin forward. Flushing is delayed due to AC/DC converter (for bilge pump) not being as expected. Sort that out tomorrow if possible.
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Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2
Prior: '77 Copper 924. '73 Black 914. '74 White Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930. '79 Anthracite 930.
Old 08-18-2016, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
Karl, the spammers LOVE your thread! Like bees to honey, they know this is the place to be...
...The eraser is not far behind. Thanks Bill.
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Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2
Prior: '77 Copper 924. '73 Black 914. '74 White Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930. '79 Anthracite 930.
Old 08-18-2016, 03:58 PM
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Flushing…

Tests I did showed acetone outperforming a few other fluids in regards to cleaning AC grime from metal. This is notably without providing any abrasion to the metal other than that created by the fluid itself. Unfortunately acetone is hellish to handle, eats a variety of plastics, and is not friendly to the environment. Instead…

Am testing Formula 88. Typical use is for cleaning engines. Spray it on…hose it off. Its chemical composition seems appropriate here. Fact that it is water soluble means no end residue to be concerned about. Also economical---few bucks a gallon. It seems relatively friendly to the environment but by no means am I a chemist. Chime in on this subject if you are.

Formula 88 composition:
  • Ethlyne glycol – antifreeze / deicing agent. Breaks down in air, water, soil in aprox. 2 weeks. Not suitable for cocktails.
  • Metasilicates – workhorse ingredient in detergents and cleaning agents
  • Surfractants – reduces surface tension between liquids and solids. Acts as a dispersing agent.
  • Phosphates – softens water. Serves to remove soil, oil, grease.
  • Water & dye

Rear lid unit's on a loop'd back-flush. Gona let it run for hours. Switch direction… run for hours… switch direction back and run a few more hours. Then a water flush and air blowout. All 3 condernsers & evap will get overkilled in same manner.

Pump is 620 gph from Harbor Freight. (I dumped the bilge pump DC direction due to ongoing complications with getting a AC/DC converter. TY for chiming in on that Rono.) Used a fine thread count bed sheet as a filter to start with. It didn't allow a quick enough fluid cycle… so switched to terrycloth. 2 gallons of 88 are cycling here. As fluid gets dirty, will replace with fresh. Has some odor so not an indoor program.




5/8” ID hose fits snug on this unit's fittings. Without clamps… hose would blow off due to pressure. (Pump has 11.5 feet of head pressure. Is a fountain pump.)




Tube-&-fin condensers… believe they’ll flush very clean very easily. Fender condenser remains questionable. That will go online tomorrow.

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Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2
Prior: '77 Copper 924. '73 Black 914. '74 White Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930. '79 Anthracite 930.
Old 08-19-2016, 11:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #124 (permalink)
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^^^

Looking good there, Karl!

And speaking of pipes - hot blond (a type that I know you have a thing for) with major, power pipes, belting out tuneages from one of the all-time vocal gods of thunder. And with a saucy, hint of a Czech accent, to boot!

She sez - "keep up the good work, Karlicious"!


Last edited by Rawknees'Turbo; 08-19-2016 at 11:43 PM..
Old 08-19-2016, 11:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #125 (permalink)
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^^^ For tiny morsel, she's a belter. (Reminds me of my x... soft on the outside, killer on the inside. She drew back to hard me in the face one day... and recanted before pulling trigger. Still laugh over that powerful moment. Sometimes miss her fission-fueled drama. Mostly not.)

Great day for ya over there in starstate Rono!
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Prior: '77 Copper 924. '73 Black 914. '74 White Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930. '79 Anthracite 930.
Old 08-20-2016, 04:05 AM
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Fender condenser. Filled this with acetone 2 days ago. Has been soaking until this morning. Did air blow out... nasty ejecto from that maneuver. Has been flushing for about 45 minutes and terry cloth filter is almost completely plugged.




Portable air from Harbor Frieght. $38 for 5 gal., 125 psi. Gun and hose are extras. Around $22. Not the same as shop compressor air but... very mobile. Best to fill where gas station's shop compressor feed's outside air line. Pay-me air pumps only do this tank halfway. (Used to have a couple of dive tanks for air. That's the way to go when no compressor's available.)

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Old 08-20-2016, 08:13 AM
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WOW, Karl, that looks fines! It will be interesting to see what it takes (how long) for the strawberry koolaid to end up cycling through, un-fines!

Little, angry blonds are hottness personified!!!!!!!!!!
Old 08-20-2016, 12:30 PM
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^^^ Koolaid factory's set aside today---GF likes to tend her plants and do other fem things on balcony patio (where factory runs. Back in flush business tomorrow. Continuing with fender unit. Believe it will clean given much time.)

Checked hoses today… new against old---lengths and fitting dock-angles. Also split some hose. (Background: system has been down for a few weeks. NO flush or other cleaning agents have been applied to inside of any hose---this is dried refrigerant, oil, and compressor fines.)

A. LOW SIDE / Shortly after evap - Very thin coating of dried fines. Very minor particle scrape off.




B. HIGH SIDE / Between R/D and TXV – Wet oil saturated with fines. Scrapes off easily. Pasty consistency.






C. HIGH SIDE / Between front condenser and R/D --- Significant chalky black layer of fines. Scrapes off easily.










Could anaconda be flushed clean? Think so. But time to do so... lengthy. Am guessing 15 gallons of fluid and 24 hours total pump time doing a loop system on a smooth bore hose. Add to that the time to get correct hose fittings to mate to AC system and time to move flush factory from one section to another. Yeah... glad to avoid that "expedition." Somebodies propagandized going "new hose." ...CG & Corvomaximus. TY to ya!

.
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Last edited by Discseven; 08-21-2016 at 08:59 PM.. Reason: I can spell
Old 08-21-2016, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discseven View Post
^^^ Koolaid factory's set aside today---GF likes to tend her plants and do other fem things on balcony patio (where factory runs. Back in flush business tomorrow. Continuing with fender unit. Believe it will clean given much time.)
Karl, Bob is going to take offence to you implying that home plant tending is a"fem thing", considering he spends much of his day gardening (indoor gardening, with very green plants that require lots of UV light, moisture, and rich soil to grow to their full, return for investemnt and risk, potential, butt still!!)!

Really interesting to see your fin(es)dings on the hose internals - pretty amazing amount of shat spread throughout the system!
Old 08-21-2016, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
Karl, Bob is going to take offence to you implying that home plant tending is a"fem thing", considering he spends much of his day gardening (indoor gardening, with very green plants that require lots of UV light, moisture, and rich soil to grow to their full, return for investemnt and risk, potential, butt still!!)!

Really interesting to see your fin(es)dings on the hose internals - pretty amazing amount of shat spread throughout the system!
Good point Rono. Bob's curious enterprise aside, I shall correct myself---while having another Bob'sbrownie---"fem" refers to girlie manner in which she does things. Hence my respect to her in clearing my gear out so she can enjoy the space as I know she likes it. Come tomorrow... gear returns.
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Old 08-21-2016, 08:58 PM
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Made mistake leaving Formula 88 sitting idle in fender condenso unit Sunday. Metal started oxidizing---white growth. Bad news = flow is distinctly reduced. Fill unit with diluted acid solution. Let sit SHORT TIME. Flush acid out with pure alcohol (bubbling discharge)... long water flush (good flow returns)... air blow out... low oven bake to dry. Going to think over pros/cons regarding reinstalling this unit. EDIT: After pure alcohol, I did a solution of baking soda. This might have been better doing before alcohol.

Evap. Cleared out with aerosol can flush first. Grey barf. Then back-flush with 88. Discharge runs clean immediately. Good flow... No worries here.




Received inline filter. Discussed this AC's status with manufacturer's tech. He recommended installing filt between R/D and TXV. Said "purpose is to capture debris before it makes it to TXV." OK... seems only micro-fines will be gettin past R/D, and, screen inside this filt is not going to capture micro-fines. Am gettin feelin this filt is nonsense. OR... Is it possible for chunk(s) to discharge from R/D? Is it possible for any desiccant chunks to release from R/D... or would desiccant be fine particles? Point being, I'm wondering if there's ANY justification to installing this?* (Takes me a little time to sort things through empirically CG.)





* Seems to me if system fails and starts shooting chunks from compressor, system is pissed even with inline filter.
Rear lid tube-and-fin condenso appears to clean very easily so there shouldn't be any residual chunks discharging from it and on into fender serp unit.
ANY loose chunk after serp will make it through front tube-and-fin to R/D and no further (I think.)
Disagreement is welcomed. (Would like to justify $s spent on currently worthless inline filt.)

.
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Last edited by Discseven; 08-23-2016 at 01:35 PM.. Reason: Baking soda solution
Old 08-23-2016, 08:01 AM
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Rear lid condenser exterior cleaning. Testing: acid* > baking soda rinse > water rinse.







* Acid/water = 50/50 solution
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Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2
Prior: '77 Copper 924. '73 Black 914. '74 White Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930. '79 Anthracite 930.

Last edited by Discseven; 08-24-2016 at 04:38 AM..
Old 08-24-2016, 04:34 AM
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Just what type of acid did you use?
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Old 08-24-2016, 05:25 AM
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Karl,

FYI... if "Formula 88" contains Butoxyethanol... from Wiley Guide to Chemical Incompatibilities "... attacks some coatings, plastics, and rubber. Attacks light metals, forming explosive hydrogen. Attacks metallic aluminum at high temperatures".

The MSDS suggests the parts per million is low, however to what degree or magnitude Butoxyethanol will 'attack' I'm going to guess is based on if you are using 100% or you cut it with water, and how long the solvent sits on the object.

Hence, unless you have done a lot of testing with Formula 88 on rubber and aluminum I'd move cautiously.

I recall one young client claiming he was an expert in AC. He wanted to flush out his system with 1,1,1 Triclor. He was not aware that it attacks aluminum, and, he was not aware it could be absorb into the rubber hoses (never mind his body). Residual Triclor does not react well with refrigerants.


The AC industry tested and designed particular flush agents that work and are safe.
I'd stick with them.
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Old 08-24-2016, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GH85Carrera View Post
Just what type of acid did you use?
Got acid from local AC place Glen. Came in plain plastic bottle with NOTHING on it. Called in afterwards asking what kind of acid it was. "It's a coil cleaner." Pushed for more detail based on "safety concern" and got same response. Is pink color (looks exactly like Com Koil fluid.) Has floral-chem aroma. Once smelled, brain gets "heavy feeling." Was told to dilute 50/50 with water. Am going back to shop next day or so... will ask owner. Let you know if better answer is had.



Solution here has been diluted... so original intense pink color is "washed out."

.
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Old 08-24-2016, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl View Post
Karl,

FYI... if "Formula 88" contains Butoxyethanol... from Wiley Guide to Chemical Incompatibilities "... attacks some coatings, plastics, and rubber. Attacks light metals, forming explosive hydrogen. Attacks metallic aluminum at high temperatures".

The MSDS suggests the parts per million is low, however to what degree or magnitude Butoxyethanol will 'attack' I'm going to guess is based on if you are using 100% or you cut it with water, and how long the solvent sits on the object.

Hence, unless you have done a lot of testing with Formula 88 on rubber and aluminum I'd move cautiously.

I recall one young client claiming he was an expert in AC. He wanted to flush out his system with 1,1,1 Triclor. He was not aware that it attacks aluminum, and, he was not aware it could be absorb into the rubber hoses (never mind his body). Residual Triclor does not react well with refrigerants.


The AC industry tested and designed particular flush agents that work and are safe.
I'd stick with them.
88 attacks aluminum... badly when left soaking. I believe oxidation I experienced from error noted earlier in thread was cleared with acid (that also attacks aluminum.) Clearly this is tricky business with the different metals, rubber, plastics and chems. NOTE TO ALL: By no means am I suggesting what I'm doing to be right. Am reporting what I've done... and results as I experience them.

Staying with proven industry standards... absolutely sound advice from you. Thank you. Appreciate you reeling me in as you tend to. As it stands, everything's been flushed and dried but for the front condenser. Will Pro-Flush that unit and blow it.

Before connecting each unit to the system's hose, I planned a final Pro-Flush of each unit and blow out. Idea being to apply a final industry standard media to all hardware internals. A long evac with minor injections of refrig and further evacs... the system will either be super clean and perform nicely or... blow up from being over-etched.
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Old 08-24-2016, 07:44 AM
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After some Googling around I see a product called or by HECAT. Is this the sort of flushing fluid we should be looking for? Honeywell’s GENESOLV® SF (HFC-245fa) is also mentioned but this flush fluid may require a special "plumping" cart.
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Old 08-24-2016, 08:36 AM
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There are a 3 primary ways to flush:
A) Professional flushing machine that has forward, reverse and 'pulse' modes, filters, on and on.
B) An empty/refillable can/container you pour in AC flush and attach to an air source.
C) Aerosol cans; this we typically recommend to DIY's because of the simplicity.
In this later category we have found Interdynamics Part No. CA-1, 17 oz, to the most friendly to use compared to other brands.

How much flush you need depends upon the severity. Generally, if you are simply flushing out old R12 residual mineral oil, 1 can of CA1 per component. In Karl's situation it would be more economical to go with apparatus "B" above and buy 'gallons' of flush.

What ever AC flush you use has one primary objective, to 'cut' or reduce the viscosity of the refrigerant oil so it releases from the component (internals). The volume of flush you use is dependent upon the situation.

Years ago 'solvent' based flushes were more common, you may still be able to find them but there are shipping restrictions. Today, citrus based solvents seem to be more common. However, if you go way back, R12 or R11 refrigerant was used to flush; for example Porsche's "SECU" service unit I recall did flush the system with refrigerant.

What Karl is trying to tackle, because Karl always like a challenge, typically is not AC liquid flushed because of the severity. This is not to say that Karl may not be successful, and I do wish him luck. However, most experienced repair shops would not attempt to flush this situation because the labor hours involved would be costly vs. replacing components, and the probability remnant debris is too high; a shop would not want to do it all over again.
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl View Post
...most experienced repair shops would not attempt to flush this situation because the labor hours involved would be costly vs. replacing components, and the probability remnant debris is too high...
Agreed... no way a shop could invest the time that I am on flushing. I grind it for however long it takes for the gratification of experimenting / learning (what works & what doesn't.)

While I did not pulse flush, I did reverse direction on each unit a few times. Also banged each unit with rubber mallet---which may qualify as pulsing. Did not stop flush until well after filter ran clean for each unit. If there is residual debris that discharges in system, I believe it will be from serpentine---which I was advised to replace and elected not to... the point being to see if, with no time clock to account to, it could be flushed successfully. I think it can but what if I'm wrong... Will be a bad day in paradise. Optimism is called on.

Let's say debris discharges from serp when system is operating. That's sort of why I bought into an inline filter. After looking at screen inside that filt, I believe R/D will filter equally well if not better than inline filter I have. (Not going to install inline filt.)

I suggest the flush-trick is to get the chems, timing, and process right. Too strong a chem will eat system---sooner than later depending on the metal. Too weak and cleaning's inadequate. Surly some chems will "attach" to rubber---one reason I elected to replace all the hose. And some chems will "attach" to metal, which is why I chose a water soluble flush---even so I made error leaving it stand too long in system. Bottom line... where "exploration" is not of intrinsic value and risk is unwanted, surly it's best to stick to industry approved chems and processes as maestro Kuehlemon advises.
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Last edited by Discseven; 08-24-2016 at 03:12 PM..
Old 08-24-2016, 02:18 PM
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