Cayenne...Porsche didn't expect this. . .

[Mike Feinstein]

I can't help but wonder about the survival of Cayenne in the current business and political context. I understand it will be available with three engines, a six and two eights, priced from mid $60K's up to $100K+. All indicators point to a soft economy through 2002.

The SUV market is decidedly different from the sports car market. I think its safe to say that the SUV market will be impacted directly by the economy. How many of you will ante up $80K-ish for a gas guzzling 400hp SUV during these troubled political and economic times?

------------------
Mike
94 C2 cab

[rstoll]

Let's go racing instead!!

------------------
Robert Stoll
83 SC
83 944

[Jim T]

Sales of all SUV's have been down, as expected. The trend has run its course, and it was only trendiness that drove SUV sales, (most people realize after a while they *really* don't like driving a 5500 lb truck to the movies, grocery store, etc. and the image of being a rugged adventurer really didn't get them anything).

Porsche is expecting to sell the SUV in pretty significant numbers. Good luck.

[campbellcj]

I could be wrong, but I think when you get up into a certain price-point "stratosphere", minor economic downturns have little or no impact on the typical buyers in a category. Around here (West LA) a lot of the people buying the MB S600's, Ferraris, etc. are not dependent on a regular salary like the rest of us mere mortals. They are buying $2 million dollar homes and tearing them down to build $5 million homes.

Sure, there will be a downturn, but IMHO it will be more in the lower and middle segments of the market, versus the high-end.

Just my wild-ass-guess $.02

------------------
Chris C.
73 914 2.0
70 911E Targa
campbell.chris@gte.net

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

I can't stand SUVs, but as a car writer, my co-scribes and I have been predicting the end of the SUV craze for at least the last five years. Hasn't happened yet and I wonder if it ever will. Every time we solidly predict that because Ford is giving rebates on Explorers or that Porsche is entering the market too late--or whatever--it means the end is nigh, we're proven wrong. I give up.

Stephan

[ebradway]

I can't see how anyone would spend that much on an SUV when you can get really nice one and two-year-old Ford Expeditions for well under $20K. My second car (actually my girlfriend's) is a 2002 Mazda Tribute. For about $20K, she got essentially a high-riding station wagon with a peppy 200HP+ V6.

If you want to see what the economy is doing to high-end car sales, take a look in the used car classifieds. There is a plethora of late-model Porsches going dirt cheap. I wish I have $50K right now!

[cabman]

i dont understand the concept of a high performance SUV....

[Obin Robinson]

remember those guys that bought the Lamborghini LM002? or how about those guys that buy boats and put twin turbo Porsche V8 engines in them? they live in the same part of the world with the guys that got 928GTS and equipped them with $100,000 INTERIORS. these are the same dudes that buy BMW 750s and throw the engines in the garbage... so that the Bentley turbo engine can be shoehorned into it. yeah, these are the same dudes that bought fleets of Maseratis back in the 1960s that were EACH worth more than 10 middle class suburban homes.

to reiterate, i'm talking about the same guys that try to outdo their friends by buying the more exclusive custom $1,000,000 Aston Martin than what their cousin has.

THOSE are the people the Cayenne is being made for. they're the same guys that Porsche kisses butt to more than any American "soccer mom" that has walked this earth. they'll buy Cayennes for their sons and daughters to use as a winter beater during college.. because being seen in a BMW or Mercedes UV would be an indication that you're just a "commoner." who are these guys? well, i just bought $15.00 worth of gasoline from them today.

don't forget, the US isn't the only country in this world in which people drive SUVs. while we lined up around the block to buy gas in the 1970s... they bought $12,000,000 Gates-Learjets. the don't bat an eyelash at buying a $200,000 Ferrari and then wailing it into a wall because there's four more in the garage back at home.

http://www.porsche-middleeast.com/homepage.htm

don't worry, Porsche will sell more Cayennes than we can all shake a stick at. you'll just need a 9,000 mile long stick for the Cayenne drivers to see you waving.


here's some tidbits for those of you unfamiliar to Porsche in the middle east:

http://www.porsche-middleeast.com/importers/dubai/dubai.htm

"'Welcome to the web page of the worlds largest Porsche Showroom.
Al Nabooda Automobiles LLC was established as the official Porsche Agent for Dubai and the Northern Emirates in 1978. The founder and chairman of the company, Mr. Khalifa Juma Al Nabooda had a very clear vision: to offer the highest quality products and after sales service in an endeavour to provide customers with an unprecedented buying experience."

http://www.porsche-middleeast.com/importers/kuwait/kuwait.htm

"'Behbehani Motors Company welcomes you to Kuwait, the pearl of the Arabian Gulf. We are the Porsche importer in Kuwait, the first in the GCC region since 1954. We provide Porsche customers with sales- and after sales service. Our professional people have good know how to achieve customer satisfaction'"


obin
edited to add dealerships


[This message has been edited by Obin Robinson (edited 10-14-2001).]

[Jim T]

Originally posted by Obin Robinson:
remember those guys that bought the Lamborghini LM002? or how about those guys that buy boats and put twin turbo Porsche V8 engines in them? they live in the same part of the world with the guys that got 928GTS and equipped them with $100,000 INTERIORS. these are the same dudes that buy BMW 750s and throw the engines in the garbage... so that the Bentley turbo engine can be shoehorned into it. yeah, these are the same dudes that bought fleets of Maseratis back in the 1960s that were EACH worth more than 10 middle class suburban homes.

to reiterate, i'm talking about the same guys that try to outdo their friends by buying the more exclusive custom $1,000,000 Aston Martin than what their cousin has.

THOSE are the people the Cayenne is being made for. they're the same guys that Porsche kisses butt to more than any American "soccer mom" that has walked this earth. they'll buy Cayennes for their sons and daughters to use as a winter beater during college.. because being seen in a BMW or Mercedes UV would be an indication that you're just a "commoner." who are these guys? well, i just bought $15.00 worth of gasoline from them today.

don't forget, the US isn't the only country in this world in which people drive SUVs. while we lined up around the block to buy gas in the 1970s... they bought $12,000,000 Gates-Learjets. the don't bat an eyelash at buying a $200,000 Ferrari and then wailing it into a wall because there's four more in the garage back at home.

http://www.porsche-middleeast.com/homepage.htm

don't worry, Porsche will sell more Cayennes than we can all shake a stick at. you'll just need a 9,000 mile long stick for the Cayenne drivers to see you waving.



obin

A few lambo's, etc. I can see. Not sure if there are 50,000 of those people to buy Peppervagens, though.

[Obin Robinson]

Originally posted by Jim T:
A few lambo's, etc. I can see. Not sure if there are 50,000 of those people to buy Peppervagens, though.

these guys?

http://www.porsche-middleeast.com/company/future/default.htm

there's 50,000 of them with horses worth more than a new 911 turbo

"Horses and Porsches Team up at the Equestrian Racing Club of Bahrain
February 2001
Behbehani Brothers invited 300 Porsche enthusiasts to join an afternoon of Horses and Porsches. The latest Porsche Boxster, 911 Carrera and the new 911 Turbo were on display for all attendees to get a closer look at the cars. The Porsche Cars Cup contest was opened to all classes and foreign horses, competing in races of up to 1200m. The Porsche Trophy boasted prize money of 1500 Bahraini dinars, not to mention the prestige of winning such a coveted race!"

and:
"Saudia staff fly with Porsche
March 2001
Saudia Airlines staff got an opportunity of a lifetime to feel what it was like to fly on the road when they were offered to drive the Boxster, Boxster S and 911 Carrera models through the streets of Jeddah.
More than a hundred pilots, co-pilots, flight engineers and top Saudia Airlines management participated in the event, which took place at the airline's head office in Jeddah. Participants agreed that the thrill, enjoyment and adrenaline rush they experienced driving the cars matched or was even better than flying."

take a look at what the cars cost over there... even after conversio they're still paying a ton for their cars.

obin

[davis911s]

Ihave been to Bahrain, I was there numerous times during the Gulf War. It was our main stop for our supply ship (Canadian) There is TONS of money there. It is a very small country, but I heard per capita it was the richest in the world? From what I saw 10 years ago I believe it. The cars there were incredible.

But as for that being the only reason Porsche is making the SUV, I doubt it. The saddest part is no matter what the SUV market does now, Porsche has spent the money and has committed to the idea (too bad).

I wish Porsche would have never thought about this project and spent the money for racing like Le mans days, but sadly they did not!

Shawn

[Jim Smolka]

Will the Porsche SUV sell??

Just look at the sales for the BMW X5. When I was contracting at the BMW plant, there was a year waiting list to buy one. I have driven the X5, and for an SUV it is very nice.

The last track event I went to, someone was using the X5 as a pull vehicle. If I had the extra $$ I would like to have a Porsche SUV as a pull vehicle

[wckrause]

The SUV market has really split into 3 or 4 different segments.
Huge: Excursions, Suburbans
Medium: Jeeps, Explorers
Small: Rav4, Trackers...

High End: MB, X5, MDX, Lexus, Infinity..

Acura MDX's have a six month wait, and you'll have to pay over list. Sounds like X5's are in the same position. That's the market that the lower end Cayenne's will compete in, and I don't see it softening any. For the SUV trend to die off, something has to take its place, and nothing has done that yet. There is a small movement towards sport wagons, and hybrid wagon/SUV's (Outback, All Road, Cross Country).

Just my $.02


------------------
Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro
MY PELICAN GALLERY

[Jim T]

Actually, the market that has taken off is the MDX, RX300, Highlander type market. "SUV's" that are built on car platforms and are really more like tall station wagons than they are like Explorers, Expeditions, Suburbans, etc.

I guess I don't really classify the MDX, RX300, etc. as SUV's in my mind. The MDX is built on an Odyssey minivan chassis, the RX300 is Camry based, etc.

[Early_S_Man]

And, then there are the 'pretender' high-end SUV's like the Isuzu, Lincoln, and Cadillac ... really just re-trimmed lower-class models.

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa
1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler

[Pillow]

Unless you have a legitimate need for an SUV... Farmer or live on Walton Mountain. It is stupid to get an SUV... Suck it up and get a Audi Avant or AWD minivan.

------
Safety first
Car buyers continue to frustrate liberal environmentalists. According to government statistics released last week, only 6 percent of the new 2002 models can achieve 30 miles per gallon. The overall average for the new vehicles, which are currently heading to showrooms, is 21 mpg.

This, said the Sierra Club's Daniel Becker, "is really appalling." But others argued that the American appetite for big, gas-guzzling automobiles is more rational than are liberal fears of fossil fuels, since such vehicles tend to be the safest in accidents. "There is very little consumer demand for the high-mileage vehicles because of the trade-offs," said Jeffrey Miller of the Coalition for Vehicle Choice. Car buyers, he said, "want size, they want safety, they want quality."

The most fuel-efficient cars remained among the least popular: The Honda Insight coupe and the Toyota Prius sedan, both hybrid gas- and electric-powered cars, had 64 mpg and 48 mpg, respectively, in combined city and highway driving.

-----

Even the so-called experts and a large part of the public seem to be one-dimensional in their thinking toward safety. It is always and exclusively vehicle mass. A vehicles handling, braking, evasiveness, maneuverability, precision of controls, and most importantly the variability of the drivers skill and capability are all ignored. Unreal! I'm clueless.

RX300 - UGLY! What is up with the rear window ghetto tint?

Highlander - UGLY!

My $.02,


------------------
Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

[MMARSH]

"And, then there are the 'pretender' high-end SUV's like the Isuzu, Lincoln, and Cadillac ... really just re-trimmed lower-class models."

Warren, I guess I should have contacted you before I bought My Lincoln and you could have told me how I could have gotten a 300 HP 32V motor in an Expedition. Also isn't the Lexus a retrimmed Toyota, The infiniti a retrimmed Nissan and the Porsche will be a retrimmed VW.

Michael Marshall

[Saffs]

Totally agree, Pillow.
Unless someone has an obvious need for an SUV, why have they got one?
It's beyond me and it's one of the ugliest trends in motoring history.
In the UK, although there are undoubtedly many around, it's not as bad as the US. It's petrol prices that forces that, I'm sure, not taste. And the mass equal safety thought (not the way to look at safety either) is overridden by the poor mpg factor - I think people think if they are going to have poor mpg go for a BMW, Merc. , etc.
Maybe the SUV trend on a mass level will fade away in time as these things do....
I hope so.
(Sorry to offend SUV owners. I'm Open to debate on them, love to hear your views. )

------------------
'75 911S Targa
'81 BMW Alpina C1 2.3

[This message has been edited by Saffs (edited 10-15-2001).]

[Wayne 962]

Well, I own an SUV that I drive nearly every day. Although, admitedly, I'm not your typical users. Right now, the car is full of Porsche parts from yesterday's Pomona Swapmeet. I've found that I can fit more into the SUV (and more fragile stuff), than into a pickup truck. Plus I can transport 4 people if need be (five is a strech in my small Pathfinder).

I also use it for towing trailers (with and without cars on the trailer), and very often it feels almost too small. My Pathfinder is an '88 (second year of the SUV for Nissan) and is one of the earliest ones. This thing is built on the Nissan pickup truck platform, and is 100% truck underneath (full drive axle suspension, tranny cooler for towing, etc.). I don't think that the newer models are built as tough as my older one (softer suspension, etc. for the soccer moms).

Anyways, despite all of this justification for owning the truck, my wife loves to drive it. She feels safe in it (except when it breaks down), and likes being "high off of the road". She would like us to sell her Honda and get another Pathfinder (something I have considered). I'm just waiting for gas prices to go thru the roof...

-Wayne

[Z-man]

As of September, 2001, Mercedes-Benz is officially bringing the G-Wagon to the US market:

It is a night and day difference compared to the ML320/ML430/ML55. The G-Wagon is a REAL UV. At around $75K, it is also real expensive. However, September sales overall for Mercedes has fallen drastically. Seems the only lux. car maker to be doing well right now is BMW. Go figure!

Last week, at a PCA meeting, Hurley Haywood (Brumos Porsche, & Racer, Jacksonville, FL) spoke of the Cayenne. He said the 'high-ups' at Porsche say the new 'Pepper-vagon' will be an incedible machine. Someone asked if the Cayenne will be able to tow a race car to the track. Mr. Haywood responded with, "Not only will it pull a race car to the track, it will also BEAT that race car on the track!"

I dunno how Porsche will do it, but supposedly this new SUV will be a contender on the track as well as the road.

I don't like SUV's, but based on the G-wagon and the Porsche SUV, I think they will stay around a bit longer for now.

Just my $0.42.
-Z-man.