1980 Weissach as Resto-Mod

[CBRacerX]

"Just when I think I'm out they pull me back in."

Recently took custody of a 1980 Weissach Edition with 70k miles. I know the previous owner and car very well. I've posted about this car in the past, trying to figure out the best path to take it on after the long-time owner lost interest in an engine rebuild about to years ago. He recently moved on to a very nice 993 coupe and this car just needed to leave his garage for good.

When I received the car the engine was 100% disassembled with all machine work done for a stock rebuild by German Precision. I put the motor back together this summer. It is a nice simple stock rebuild with some fun bolt on character:

New Valves, bearings, seals, rings, etc. Stock split case rebuild. Stock, stock, stock. OK so I added pressure fed tensioners. But otherwise stock long block.
Weber 46IDA3C with ITG Air Cleaners
SSI Heat Exchangers
Single Outlet Sport Exhaust
XDi Crank Fire Ignition
New Clutch, PP, T/O bearing



Should make nice noises

I then got involved with a modest garage renovation that had the car sitting and waiting for some attention.

Fun With Old Garages

Well yesterday I brought it into the garage and put it on the lift.



Mechanical bits are overall great. Car has new 84-89 Carrara calipers, rotors and pads, with fluid changed when installed two years ago. I'm not worried about brake system corrosion. The gas still in the tank, that I have to deal with... All the electrics work as expected.

My plan is to get the engine compartment detailed and install the motor and trans. Break that in, solve any issues with sitting for two+ years. After 1K miles pull motor and service (re-torque heads and valve adjust). I'm sure I'll be dealing with a surprise here and there as the car is awoken from the almost three year long nap.

Then I can address cosmetics. Car has a repaint which was done to a less than excellent standard in the 90's. While there is "no rust" there is what looks like rust on the front windshield cowl in the usual spot (the windshield lower corners). Otherwise, the car is super rust free and was always garaged. Undercarriage is excellent.

Already has fairly recent bilsteins and 22/28mm torsion bars with through the body front bar (I installed that with PO in the 90's) and adjustable rear bar. New CV's and driveshafts. The interior is all there but shows some wear, no rips or tears (EDIT: Drivers's side bolster has bad piping) but the leather dash is lifting. I think if I got serious and re-dyed all the Doric Grey and installed a dash pad it would look pretty terrific (EDIT: and repaired the driver's seat). The "rust" carpet is pretty good overall.

So all of the above is interesting in and of itself for the air cooled 911 fanboy. What I am starting to mull over is the path to take on the body. I'll admit an intense fondness for the '73 RS and I built an RS Replica from a '73 back in the 90's.



Later that car was (shield your eyes) "Front-Dated" to a 74 RSR Replica.



Hey, back then these were just "used cars."

During that process I kept the long hood and it survives to this day as garage art...



The question is (oh geez should I really go there): Since this car needs paint to be nice and will never be a fully restored "Weissach" (FWIW) without getting upside down and having to put the CIS back on (no thanks). Why not back-date it and enjoy all that such a project offers? I might even get more $ for it later when it is sold someday...

I kinda like this: 1984 is a 73...

[CBRacerX]

And while I'm riffing on this resto-mod theme, I do have a 964 oil tank and all the lines up in the attic for a rainy day (or long winter) project.

[Josh D]

I'm all for "build what you want". The automotive hobby, Porsche 911 included, would be boring if we all drove around in stock original cars. I'm sure there are plenty of original Weissach garage queens to carry the original flag. Just my $.02.

[javadog]

FWIW, my thoughts:

I like the way an original RS lightweight drives.
I'm less fond of the touring version of the RS.

I don't have any enthusiasm, at all, for a heavy, backdated conversion that uses a larger, non-mfi motor. There is nothing about that car that feels like an RS lightweight when you drive it. Therefore, it's somewhat pointless.

A car that looks like an RS on the outside, that has an '80's 911 interior in it is as attractive to me as a fake 930 turbo built on a 911T chassis. To wit, not attractive at all.

If you want to build a hot rod, sell the Weissach and start with a plain old 911. I'd go all the way and not straddle the fence. Or, I'd make a nice car out of the Weissach. Sooner or later, it will be worth some money and if you keep it long enough, you won't be upside down. I'd even throw the CIS back on. When it works properly, it works well. Carbs are always going to be a headache and the difference in power isn't much. It's like running around with less gas in the tank.

JR

[will hung]

Firstly, love the turbo fans on the '73.

I second building it the way you like. When talking about long hoods, I always go back to Ferrari's as an example. When their values went stratospheric, everybody thought the bubble would burst, but it never did. I've seen where replicas, REPLICAS, of Ferrari prototype racers can fetch 7 figures if they have a Ferrari engine. Basically, they've reached a point that they are so desirable that good replicas will fetch good money. So I feel a well done longhood backdate will fetch good money as genuine longhoods keep going up in value.

[Macroni]

Restore to as original.......

[CBRacerX]

Originally Posted by javadog

FWIW, my thoughts:

I like the way an original RS lightweight drives.
I'm less fond of the touring version of the RS.

I don't have any enthusiasm, at all, for a heavy, backdated conversion that uses a larger, non-mfi motor. There is nothing about that car that feels like an RS lightweight when you drive it. Therefore, it's somewhat pointless.

A car that looks like an RS on the outside, that has an '80's 911 interior in it is as attractive to me as a fake 930 turbo built on a 911T chassis. To wit, not attractive at all.

If you want to build a hot rod, sell the Weissach and start with a plain old 911. I'd go all the way and not straddle the fence. Or, I'd make a nice car out of the Weissach. Sooner or later, it will be worth some money and if you keep it long enough, you won't be upside down. I'd even throw the CIS back on. When it works properly, it works well. Carbs are always going to be a headache and the difference in power isn't much. It's like running around with less gas in the tank.

JR

All your preferences are duly noted and thanks for comment. I'm not a fan of "pretender" cars per se, but I do love me a tastefully done Resto-Mod. Hence the title of the thread. If I went the backdate route, I plan to make the correct changes to the dash and gauges to complete the look, and put RS door panels on with winder windows (I have some of those in the attic). The Weissach has old style sport seats that should work pretty well in a backdate scenario. But it won't be a simple "back to the future" approach, I'm considering the type of up, err, back date that includes mixing in new tech as well as old. Hence the crank fire (love those systems) and possibly a 964 oil tank conversion along with newer (but still not OTP Big Reds) brakes.

WRT the CIS, yes it does work fine when all is operating properly. CIS was the first fuel injection system I learned thanks to owning a few water cooled VW's from the 70s and 80s. And CIS gets better fuel economy than Webers (although nothing to be very proud of compared to a mega-squirt conversion). But CIS is missing the soul of the Weber. It has no looks and no voice

I do think, after looking at the market, that this is a "plain old 911" SC - you don't seem to get rewarded for the Weissach "special edition" as much as just having a bone stock car with excellent cosmetics. And it is already in the garage ready to be molded

[javadog]

You didn't used to get rewarded for owning a US Carrera, either, but those days are long gone. As the market moves up, niche cars become more important.

As for the interior, the seats just don't work with an early car. Granted, that's my opinion, but the two generations are just so different that it just doesn't work. The irony is that, again in my opinion, the sports seats that were used in the -'80 911 are the best seats ever put in a 911, much better than any of the seats fitted to an RS.

If you install a twin pipe (early style) sport muffler, you'll completely forget the noise a set of carbs makes. You live in the land of lousy winters and much cold weather. That's a real big argument against carbs.

I bought a new 911SC in the fall of 1982. I modified it somewhat like a Weisssach (Fuchs, sport shocks, sport seats, lightly modified motor (SSI's, sport muffler, revised cam timing, careful setting of the CIS), same spoilers, etc.) and it was one of the funnest cars I've ever owned. There was a fine line between modifications that made it better and those that detracted from the driving fun. A little is good, too much spoils the fun.

Your car, but you did ask our opinion...

JR

[evan9eleven]

I vote resto-mod if you go all out. Halfway just doesn't cut it one way or the other.

[CBRacerX]

Originally Posted by evan9eleven

I vote resto-mod if you go all out. Halfway just doesn't cut it one way or the other.

That is a good point. A halfway update (like Javadog pointed out) with exterior from one gen and interior from another is not for everyone. And to me Resto-Mod means MOD for personalization and fun. In the example from BAT I posted above, the car got custom fender flares - very nice. Hard as a DIY unless you have very strong body shop skills. While I will take on anything mechanical I'm not the words best finely finished sheet metal fabricator. But I find that level of customization lovely when done well.

So lets say I am going to go all out. To me that means doing everything to a high standard and as an integrated whole. My last air cooled 911 was done that way with a theme of "Best of the 80's" and I married a 1987 with a 993 3.8 RS engine and some understated RUF bodywork and interior bits. Fun project. For this SC I'm not sure yet what the theme might be, other than I want to retain a raw, elemental character for the drivetrain (hence the webers).

[kenikh]

What wheels you have on it? I have a set of Weissach 15x7/8 Fuchs collecting dust...

[RSBob]

Resto-mod or backdate? Always thought of resto-mods as preserving the base look of the year of the car while adding updated, performance oriented suspension, engine and transaxle. Backdates, is making the car look like a previous earlier model year.

But why take my word on it? Barrett Jackson, has a definition listed for those purchasing or bidding on restomod cars:

A nearly stock-appearing vehicle that has been fitted with late-model chassis, drivetrain and conveniences

Resto Mod Rods LLC – a non-specific car restoration business from Baltimore, whose definition was located by Google, says a Restomod is taking…

an early muscle car and updating it so that it handles like a modern day sports car. It is mainly going to be used for normal driving conditions.

Urban Dictionary, a common source for modern words, says

restoring a car with updated and or custom conponets (the misspelling is taken directly from their definition)

Even Jay Leno, the famous car guy who used to host a small television show, has his own definition that he wrote into an article for Popular Mechanics

You take an old car and modernize it with an updated engine, suspension, brakes, tires and electronics.

So you just may be resto-back-mod-dating.

[CBRacerX]

Originally Posted by RSBob

Resto-mod or backdate? Always thought of resto-mods as preserving the base look of the year of the car while adding updated, performance oriented suspension, engine and transaxle. Backdates, is making the car look like a previous earlier model year.

But why take my word on it? Barrett Jackson, has a definition listed for those purchasing or bidding on restomod cars:

A nearly stock-appearing vehicle that has been fitted with late-model chassis, drivetrain and conveniences

Resto Mod Rods LLC – a non-specific car restoration business from Baltimore, whose definition was located by Google, says a Restomod is taking…

an early muscle car and updating it so that it handles like a modern day sports car. It is mainly going to be used for normal driving conditions.

Urban Dictionary, a common source for modern words, says

restoring a car with updated and or custom conponets (the misspelling is taken directly from their definition)

Even Jay Leno, the famous car guy who used to host a small television show, has his own definition that he wrote into an article for Popular Mechanics

You take an old car and modernize it with an updated engine, suspension, brakes, tires and electronics.

So you just may be resto-back-mod-dating.

Yes you're right this is a bit of a fishing expedition now on what to do. Not quite a blank canvas but just gathering the options up. By the definitions above my '87 was a more of a resto-mod and the project described here in no real detail is a resto-back-mod-dating. Maybe it is more of a RGruppe approach.

[javadog]

Look at it another way. There are essentially two things about a Weissach that make it different than a regular 911, the interior and the tail.

The interior is an unusual color. It's not something that you'd find in an early car, let alone an RS. I've already said that the seats you have are the best ever made for a 911 and I've owned them all. I'm including aftermarket seats in this too, as I've sat in all of those as well. When people think of an RS interior, they think of the one put in the lightweight RS, not the touring RS (never mind that none of them ever use the correct seats for the lightweight version). I can't see any sort of mixing and matching of stock Weissach interior parts and aftermarket RS parts that would look good. So, you're basically going to be throwing the interior away to backdate the car to an RS.

As for the tail, I think early, small bumper cars with a tail look ridiculous. No early car had one, so keeping the tail would detract from the look you want. So, once again, you need to toss the Weissach part and add a ducktail, like the other 10,000 guys that have already done so.

Maybe another approach would be to keep the Weissach parts and just improve little aspects of the car. I'm not thinking of change for change's sake; that's somewhat pointless. 964 oil tank? Why?

Maybe you should make the car lighter, in ways that won't stand out like a sore thumb. Lots of things you can do there. Maybe go ahead and repaint it and fix the rust. If you see rust by the windshield, it's elsewhere, too. The front fender to cowl joints, for starters... Get the leather cleaned and replace what you can't clean well enough. Etc.

I can just about promise you that long term, you'll get more of your money back the closer you keep it to stock. Own it long enough and you won't be upside down. This car is on the verge of climbing in value, if you leave it mostly alone.

One other option would be to sell the Weissach and buy an earlier tub to play with.

JR

[CBRacerX]

Originally Posted by javadog

Look at it another way. There are essentially two things about a Weissach that make it different than a regular 911, the interior and the tail.

The interior is an unusual color. It's not something that you'd find in an early car, let alone an RS. I've already said that the seats you have are the best ever made for a 911 and I've owned them all. I'm including aftermarket seats in this too, as I've sat in all of those as well. When people think of an RS interior, they think of the one put in the lightweight RS, not the touring RS (never mind that none of them ever use the correct seats for the lightweight version). I can't see any sort of mixing and matching of stock Weissach interior parts and aftermarket RS parts that would look good. So, you're basically going to be throwing the interior away to backdate the car to an RS.

As for the tail, I think early, small bumper cars with a tail look ridiculous. No early car had one, so keeping the tail would detract from the look you want. So, once again, you need to toss the Weissach part and add a ducktail, like the other 10,000 guys that have already done so.

Maybe another approach would be to keep the Weissach parts and just improve little aspects of the car. I'm not thinking of change for change's sake; that's somewhat pointless. 964 oil tank? Why?

Maybe you should make the car lighter, in ways that won't stand out like a sore thumb. Lots of things you can do there. Maybe go ahead and repaint it and fix the rust. If you see rust by the windshield, it's elsewhere, too. The front fender to cowl joints, for starters... Get the leather cleaned and replace what you can't clean well enough. Etc.

I can just about promise you that long term, you'll get more of your money back the closer you keep it to stock. Own it long enough and you won't be upside down. This car is on the verge of climbing in value, if you leave it mostly alone.

One other option would be to sell the Weissach and buy an earlier tub to play with.

JR

Right now I think I'm leaning toward a mostly stock cosmetic restoration/update. The back date still has a lot of appeal for me, and I won't rule it out, but mechanical excellence comes first. Lets see how far I go off the rails on that and then the cosmetic plan shall be finalized. For me this is not just getting the most money out of the car, it is the fun of working on it. Why a 964 oil tank "update" for example? It can be added without bodywork, is reversible and goes toward a resto-mod approach of adding newer technology to an older platform. And it doesn't hurt that I already have all the parts...

[javadog]

The point about the oil tank is that there's nothing wrong with the one in the car, so I'm not sure what you gain. If you want to move weight around in the car, or (better yet) just lose it altogether, the 964 oil tank doesn't make the 10 ten list, in terms of cost/benefit.

I'm glad to hear that you're leaning towards something more stock. I say get it up and running, fix the things that need fixing, then drive it a while and see what you want to change. You might find you like the car more than you think.

JR

[kenikh]

These cars are rare a hens' teeth and have the aforementioned oddities, that already make them a backdate of sorts. That early turbo style tail is sweet, and 15" wheels in 1980? Try finding a set with 80 date codes and 911 part numbers. Pretty sure they all left the factory on these cars. My dad almost bought one back in the 90s...i wish he had. These bad boys are going to be the one that got away in the not too distant future.

[CBRacerX]

Here is a much delayed update to the project. I got it runnng this summer and we have put a few tanks of gas thru it. Working out minor bugs here and there, the current one is turn signals that went on strike, and enjoying driving it. I've left the costmetics stock for now and have most mechanical systems in pretty fine order. Still have to put in a new windshield, rear window seal, sunroof felt and that sort of thing. But it drives and stops nicely. Added a hand throttle for the carbs and other nifty updates but nothing extreme.

[CBRacerX]

[billybek]

Looks very nice!