Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 911 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
jwakil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 716
Garage
Snell rated helmet questions

I'm in the market to get a new helmet for my bike but also would like to use it perhaps for some PCA DE events in the future. I understand I need a Snell M (motorcycle) or SA (car) rated helmet (2015+). So I went to my local bike shop and asked for any such rated helmets which have the full face but have the hinge so you can flip up the face part temporarily if you want. ( Currently I have that kind of helmet and its very nice, but it is not Snell rated). The salesperson was a little annoying, and quickly told me that no helmet can be Snell rated with that kind of hinge, because it wouldn't pass the Snell front impact test. (I didn't think to ask that there are many open face helmets which I've seen DE drivers use which I assume are Snell rated. So if an open face can be Snell rated, why wouldn't a full face one with a hinged flip-front not be?) He also said no Snell rated helmet can have a sun visor that pops down from the forehead area inside the helmet, because it would not pass the Snell top impact test. (I started to really question what this guy was saying when he told me that my request for a white or silver helmet for the hot Houston summers was foolish because the helmets are insulated inside and black would be just as cool!)

Anyway, is this guy right about the types of helmets that pass Snell rating? Is there no Snell rated helmet (M or SA) with a flip front or double drop down visors?
__________________
81 -930
82 - Austin Mini 998
78 Mini 1275cc -totaled
83SC Euro w/77 3.0 Carerra Eng.--sold
Several other daily drivers not worth mentioning...

Last edited by jwakil; 01-04-2017 at 07:23 PM..
Old 01-04-2017, 06:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Cajundaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cucamonga CA
Posts: 3,287
Garage
I have never seen a hinged-chin Snell helmet. They may exist but are certainly rare if so. I prefer a full face with flip up visor.
__________________
2009 Cayman PDK
With a few tweaks
Old 01-04-2017, 06:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Rescuer of old cars
 
Arne2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 3,489
Garage
I think he was correct. The Snell requirements didn't allow for the shell to be in multiple pieces in the past. So one piece full face or one piece open face, take your pick.
__________________
"Honestly now, did you spend your youth dreaming of someday owning a Nissan or Mitsubishi?" - Porsche ad from early '90s

1972 911T coupe
Priors - '84 911 Carrera coupe, '84 944, '73 914 2.0
Old 01-04-2017, 07:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
jwakil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 716
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arne2 View Post
I think he was correct. The Snell requirements didn't allow for the shell to be in multiple pieces in the past. So one piece full face or one piece open face, take your pick.
That makes no sense to me. Which one would you rather be wearing when your face smashes into a windshield or dashboard (or just flying debris), an open face helmet or one with a face shield hinged to that same helmet?
__________________
81 -930
82 - Austin Mini 998
78 Mini 1275cc -totaled
83SC Euro w/77 3.0 Carerra Eng.--sold
Several other daily drivers not worth mentioning...
Old 01-04-2017, 07:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Rescuer of old cars
 
Arne2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 3,489
Garage
Snell regs don't always make sense to people outside the industry. I think they are more worried about structural integrity of the shell, not whether there is face protection or not. They care about brain case protection.
__________________
"Honestly now, did you spend your youth dreaming of someday owning a Nissan or Mitsubishi?" - Porsche ad from early '90s

1972 911T coupe
Priors - '84 911 Carrera coupe, '84 944, '73 914 2.0

Last edited by Arne2; 01-05-2017 at 08:06 AM..
Old 01-04-2017, 07:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 188
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to hangar21
All, I'm in the same situation. I took these pix at last DE, I like the fit. However, I did not wear it during our track sessions. Ihope that helps.
Terry
Old 01-05-2017, 02:29 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Moderator
 
Bill Verburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 23,473
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwakil View Post
I'm in the market to get a new helmet for my bike but also would like to use it perhaps for some PCA DE events in the future. I understand I need a Snell M (motorcycle) or SA (car) rated helmet (2015+). So I went to my local bike shop and asked for any such rated helmets which have the full face but have the hinge so you can flip up the face part temporarily if you want. ( Currently I have that kind of helmet and its very nice, but it is not Snell rated). The salesperson was a little annoying, and quickly told me that no helmet can be Snell rated with that kind of hinge, because it wouldn't pass the Snell front impact test. (I didn't think to ask that there are many open face helmets which I've seen DE drivers use which I assume are Snell rated. So if an open face can be Snell rated, why wouldn't a full face one with a hinged flip-front not be?) He also said no Snell rated helmet can have a sun visor that pops down from the forehead area inside the helmet, because it would not pass the Snell top impact test. (I started to really question what this guy was saying when he told me that my request for a white or silver helmet for the hot Houston summers was foolish because the helmets are insulated inside and black would be just as cool!)

Anyway, is this guy right about the types of helmets that pass Snell rating? Is there no Snell rated helmet (M or SA) with a flip front or double drop down visors?
The PCA DE standard is Snell SA 2010 or newer, the latest is Snell 2015 but 2010 is ok for the next 4yrs(the previous was 2005 which expired last year). Don't get an SM helmet and you might as well get a 2015 for the 5 more years of life.

Not sure what the issue is every full face Snell SA I've ever looked at has a flip up visor.

There are many manufacturers, they all fit a little differently and have different features

Her's a link to Bell's Road race offerings all have a flip up face shield
__________________
Bill Verburg
'76 Carrera 3.6RS(nee C3/hotrod), '95 993RS/CS(clone)
| Pelican Home |Rennlist Wheels |Rennlist Brakes |
Old 01-05-2017, 03:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Dearborn, Mi
Posts: 1,738
I think OP is asking about a "modular" helmet. For motorcycles. You can basically have a full face helmet on the motorway, then flip it open chin guard and all to let the air hit your face at in-town speeds.



There are no motorsports helmets with this design, as there's really no use for this feature in a car.

IMHO I'd choose a Snell SA for car stuff. If I recall correctly, the M certification is for one large impact (falling off the bike.) The SA is for multiple (banging off a cage several times during a roll event) plus fire resistance. Also SA 2015 has mandatory HANS post compatibility if you decide to eventually go that way.

Also like Bill says, all have a flip open eye shield. All helmets are not the same, if you pick one with a larger eye port it'll be less claustrophobic feeling, and possibly almost like an open face with the shield up.
__________________
Matt - 84 Carrera
Old 01-05-2017, 04:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
faverymi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Around Boston
Posts: 1,710
Buy a Stilo and be done
Old 01-05-2017, 05:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Kessel run in 12 parsecs!
 
Fast Freddy 944's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 1,144
Garage
I have been riding and racing for more than 30 yrs. Look, purchase a Dot, Snell rated helmet and you should be ok. Remember dress for the crash, not for a day at the beach. If you ride on the street, make sure you are a organ donor, nuff said.............
Old 01-05-2017, 05:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
cycling has-been
 
bkreigsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 5,767
Time was when the 'M' designation was constructed without a fireproof materials. I don't know if that still the case or not, but lots of regions in the east will not pass 'M' rated helmets in tech inspection.
Bill K
__________________
73 911T MFI, 76 912E, 77 Turbo Carrera
Old 01-05-2017, 07:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Augustine, FL
Posts: 536
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkreigsr View Post
Time was when the 'M' designation was constructed without a fireproof materials. I don't know if that still the case or not, but lots of regions in the east will not pass 'M' rated helmets in tech inspection.
Bill K
This is my understanding as well...but I haven't been active in racing for some time and things may have changed.
__________________
'84 Carrera Targa (3.0 with SSIs, Webers, DC-19 Cams, MSD) - Sold
Old 01-05-2017, 09:47 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
wayner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: I live on the road, I just stay here sometimes...
Posts: 6,657
To my knowledge there are no hinged car helmets

I think any approved open face helmet that you see is a car helmet


They would not pass the bike test ( unless they are just DOT approved instead of snell)
__________________
73 RSR replica
928 5 speed with phone dials and Pasha seats
914 wide body hot rod
My 73RSR build http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/893954-saving-73-crusher-again.html

Last edited by wayner; 01-05-2017 at 10:16 AM..
Old 01-05-2017, 10:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
OffCamber00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 898
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCrescue View Post
This is my understanding as well...but I haven't been active in racing for some time and things may have changed.
This has not changed. A Snell M helmet will not pass tech for DE or club racing. As Bill stated, you need an SA 2010 or newer.
__________________
Mat P
1988 911 Carrera
Old 01-05-2017, 10:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Walt Fricke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 5,640
There is widespread misunderstanding about PCA DE helmet requirements. Here is what they say:

All car occupants must wear a Snell approved helmet, which has the current available Snell rating or the one previous Snell rating. Other helmets are acceptable if they are approved for PCA Club Racing.

This means a Snell M of the right standard year is acceptable. Same would be true if it has only an SFI or FIA or British rating, though I can't say I have ever seen one with just one of those and no Snell.

The SA rating now means four things, basically. 1) it is HANS ready (at least has the holes drilled - I forget if the nut part has to be there for Snell), 2) linings etc meet flame resistance standards, 3) it passed the additional bonk on a roll bar like form, and 4) the eyeport may be wider (or is it narrower? - one is better for motorcycle protection).

HANSs are not required for DE. You can drive in shorts and a T shirt in DE, so flame resistance doesn't matter. You don't need a roll cage in DE (old cabs excepted for a roll bar). For that matter, it is highly unlikely that helmet manufacturers design one shell to pass the bounce your head on the pavement test for M helmets, and one for the extra strike on the bar form for cars. So same shell, just different lining material at most, and skip the HANS anchor step. And whichever way it goes, the M eyeport is fine for use in a car also.

I should qualify this a bit: the PCA National standards are minimum standards. A region could require more, so a guy needs to inquire of the regions' whose DEs he is going to run to see if they have local standards which are more restrictive. It would not surprise me to see some region require an SA helmet, because careful analytic thought tends to go out the window when the word safety is mentioned.

However, the main reason to purchase an M helmet rather than an SA is cost. In the overall scheme of things it isn't that much extra, and you can avoid this kind of worry if you get one. Most of us don't go to DEs in order to get into arguments.

However, despite the fact that they are acceptable, it has always struck me as sort of crazy that you'd want an open face helmet. Yes, Dale Earnhardt wore one, but he was a prickly character and not known for listening to advice on safety matters. Yes, some DE instructors like the open face for some reason, maybe they think using the communicator is easier? Don't see why, though. Yes, you see rally car navigators in them, or at least you used to, and those guys are living crash test dummies, so maybe the chin bar isn't all that important. But it sure looks like it would be valuable - who wants a broken jaw or missing teeth?
Old 01-05-2017, 12:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
jwakil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 716
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driven97 View Post
I think OP is asking about a "modular" helmet. For motorcycles. You can basically have a full face helmet on the motorway, then flip it open chin guard and all to let the air hit your face at in-town speeds.



There are no motorsports helmets with this design, as there's really no use for this feature in a car.

IMHO I'd choose a Snell SA for car stuff. If I recall correctly, the M certification is for one large impact (falling off the bike.) The SA is for multiple (banging off a cage several times during a roll event) plus fire resistance. Also SA 2015 has mandatory HANS post compatibility if you decide to eventually go that way.

Also like Bill says, all have a flip open eye shield. All helmets are not the same, if you pick one with a larger eye port it'll be less claustrophobic feeling, and possibly almost like an open face with the shield up.
Yes, this is exactly the type of helmet I'm talking about. I ride my bike and definitely need full face for the wind, and my PCA region is ok with a Snell M. I find this flip up feature great when standing at a light in 100F Houston weather. Now I don't understand why Snell would think an open face helmet is safer than this. You can argue the full face one-piece would have more structural rigidity overall, but an open-face being better than this (with face down) for head and facial injuries? Come on...hard to believe you can't design some hinges on the side that would maintain the structural integrity of the head part.
__________________
81 -930
82 - Austin Mini 998
78 Mini 1275cc -totaled
83SC Euro w/77 3.0 Carerra Eng.--sold
Several other daily drivers not worth mentioning...

Last edited by jwakil; 01-05-2017 at 02:11 PM..
Old 01-05-2017, 01:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Bill Verburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 23,473
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt Fricke View Post
There is widespread misunderstanding about PCA DE helmet requirements. Here is what they say:

All car occupants must wear a Snell approved helmet, which has the current available Snell rating or the one previous Snell rating. Other helmets are acceptable if they are approved for PCA Club Racing.

This means a Snell M of the right standard year is acceptable. Same would be true if it has only an SFI or FIA or British rating, though I can't say I have ever seen one with just one of those and no Snell.

The SA rating now means four things, basically. 1) it is HANS ready (at least has the holes drilled - I forget if the nut part has to be there for Snell), 2) linings etc meet flame resistance standards, 3) it passed the additional bonk on a roll bar like form, and 4) the eyeport may be wider (or is it narrower? - one is better for motorcycle protection).

HANSs are not required for DE. You can drive in shorts and a T shirt in DE, so flame resistance doesn't matter. You don't need a roll cage in DE (old cabs excepted for a roll bar). For that matter, it is highly unlikely that helmet manufacturers design one shell to pass the bounce your head on the pavement test for M helmets, and one for the extra strike on the bar form for cars. So same shell, just different lining material at most, and skip the HANS anchor step. And whichever way it goes, the M eyeport is fine for use in a car also.

I should qualify this a bit: the PCA National standards are minimum standards. A region could require more, so a guy needs to inquire of the regions' whose DEs he is going to run to see if they have local standards which are more restrictive. It would not surprise me to see some region require an SA helmet, because careful analytic thought tends to go out the window when the word safety is mentioned.

However, the main reason to purchase an M helmet rather than an SA is cost. In the overall scheme of things it isn't that much extra, and you can avoid this kind of worry if you get one. Most of us don't go to DEs in order to get into arguments.

However, despite the fact that they are acceptable, it has always struck me as sort of crazy that you'd want an open face helmet. Yes, Dale Earnhardt wore one, but he was a prickly character and not known for listening to advice on safety matters. Yes, some DE instructors like the open face for some reason, maybe they think using the communicator is easier? Don't see why, though. Yes, you see rally car navigators in them, or at least you used to, and those guys are living crash test dummies, so maybe the chin bar isn't all that important. But it sure looks like it would be valuable - who wants a broken jaw or missing teeth?
I looked up the local regions requirements, to my surprise Walt is correct, SA or SM is ok(SA preferred) for some regions but SA or SAH for others.

I would never consider an SM just because of the lack of HANs, same for belts, w/ the speed of modern cars, HANs, 5/6 pt Harness and cage are on my list even for DE.
__________________
Bill Verburg
'76 Carrera 3.6RS(nee C3/hotrod), '95 993RS/CS(clone)
| Pelican Home |Rennlist Wheels |Rennlist Brakes |
Old 01-05-2017, 02:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 97
I think one of the main differences in M and SA specification is the size of the opening. The bike helmet has a larger opening to allow better peripheral vision, in that bikers need to see to the sides more.
Old 01-05-2017, 03:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Insert Tag Line HERE.....
 
rattlsnak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 8,683
Garage
Send a message via AIM to rattlsnak
The difference between M and Sa is in the way the helmet is designed for impact.

Snell Standards specific question

What are the differences between the SA, M and K standards?

The SA standard was designed for competitive auto racing while the M standard was for motorcycling and other motorsports. The K standard was released to accommodate helmets used in karting. There are three major differences between them:

The SA standard requires flammability test while the M and K standards do not.
The SA and K standards allow for a narrower visual field than the M standard (Some SA and K certified helmets may not be street legal).
The SA and K standards include a rollbar multi-impact test while the M standard does not.

In other words, Ms are rated for a one fall hit as in a motorcycle accident while SAs are rated to take multiple hits. DOT rating is the lackest and just a basic rating by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard.

My opinion,... get a SA rated helmet.
__________________
Marc
Old 01-05-2017, 06:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
jwakil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 716
Garage
Appreciate the opinions on SA vs M, but I'm just peeved and confused how the regulators can give a SNELL rating to a helmet with no face shield, but they can't to one that has a modular flip front. Hopefully it is based on sound physics and not laziness or trying to reduce testing efforts.
__________________
81 -930
82 - Austin Mini 998
78 Mini 1275cc -totaled
83SC Euro w/77 3.0 Carerra Eng.--sold
Several other daily drivers not worth mentioning...

Last edited by jwakil; 01-05-2017 at 08:22 PM..
Old 01-05-2017, 08:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:31 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.