Guys, please, I'm not trying to be aggressive. I am trying to passionately defend the 911's abilities as a track car, which are somehow in question????

Am I the only one who reads 951Stuttgarts comments as "slightly" inflammatory towards 911's. While I have never driven a highly modified 951, I have been on the track with them, with good drivers driving them. I know that in the braking zones and in the corners I can reel them in, so I'm not sure where the 951's better braking and handling would show themselves.

Of course it is silly to mention a GT2 or a 935 in this thread, but we are not supposed to be talking about an 80's Carrera with a 3.2 in it either. That has been completely overlooked by some of the posters. We are talking about an early car with a 3.2. The early car can be 400-600 lbs lighter than a stock 3.2 Carrera "warm weather car".

My goal is not to turn off potential 944 owners from buying a 911, but as I am not a 911 salesman, my goal is also not to just walk on eggshells when 944 owners are "around". Should a 944 owner be able to just say whatever he wants about 911's and we don't respond to those comments for fear of alienating potential 944 to 911 upgrades, or after reading some comments, should I say downgrades? The thread starter never asked us to compare a modified 951 with a 3.2 Carrera from the same year. He asked about a 3.2 in an early car, and that is a completely different animal.

I know Stuttgart951 was not trying to start something, but I found his opinions to differ widely from mine. I know I am not supposed to type in all capitals for emphasis because it is read as yelling. It was just for emphasis though.

Why is arguing an early 911 with a 3.2's case against a 951 seen as an "inferiority complex"? The more obvious position would be to say that some 944 owners have an inferiority complex about 911's, but I never said that. I don't think they should feel that way. They are driving a super fast, great handling car. I just don't agree that they are driving the be all, end all Porsche track car.

Now if I was going over to the 944 board and posting my differences of opinion, that would be uncool, but I keep clicking on "Porsche 911 BBS", so I think I'm in my neighborhood??

If you want to talk dollar for dollar better track car, I will get down on my knees and bow to the 951 because there is no comparison. I have been on the track with a $50,000 951 and let me just say I was his "Be-atch". But that guy sold his car and he is now struggling to come to grips with driving a 911 on the track.

I think that from now on I will just respond to posts about Porsche's being better track cars than Vipers, I think I'd be safe there :D

hmm...

'88 911 vs '88 951 (both bone stock)

nearly the same in acceleration and topspeed.

'88 911 with $500 - $1000 worth of mods vs '88 951 with the same $500-$1000 worth of mods

I think the 951 would spank the 911 in accel and top speed.

In the last 6 months an article from a magazine was posted to, I think, the Rennlist BBS where they took a 944 or 951 (can't remember for sure) and compared it to a 3.2 same year 911. The driver of both cars was Derek Bell. The results were that the 911 was more engaging and fun, but the 944 was faster around the track because of the neutrality and balance. I gotta say that it makes sense, and I think DB is probably qualified to make the comparison. I love the 911 and think it is an amazing car and has an amazing record in Racing, but under normal circumstances I don't know that it is necessarily always the fastest car.

I was at an event in Santa Fe last year where the FTD was a HIGHLY modded 951...very cool car! Would I own one? Sure...I need a winter car that I don't mind smashing up and the 951 would work fine, but I would always take a 911 over the 951. My .02 worth.

As I read the original post, it sounded like the idea was to sell the BMW to raise $9K and use the $9K to either:
A. Convert the existing 911 (1970, 2.2L) to 3.2L, or
B. Leave the 911 stock, buy a 951

If those are (or can be) the choices, the decision seems obvious. Buy the 951, compare both cars for a few months, also find some 911 3.2s to drive, then decide.

If you decide to sell the 951 you shouldn't lose of your $9K much over that short period of ownership, other than sales tax and license fees. On the other hand, if you sink the $9K into converting the 911 and then decide to sell it (whether for a 951 or a later 911), I doubt you'll get back even 1/3 of your $9K. You might get zero of it back or even devalue the car - when you're talking 1970-vintage, I suspect originality counts for more than radical mods.

Not to mention, wouldn't you need to do a more to the 911 than just a 3.2L conversion, in order to get a car with balanced power and handling? Bigger wheels/tires, bigger brakes, suspension, etc? Seems it could cost more than $9K.

On the question of 951 vs modded early 911, I'm fairly convinced that for street purposes it is a wholly subjective decision. Kind of like red wine or white wine. All this argument over which car is faster on the track, not to mention 935s and so on, seems pointless for the original poster's purposes - although undeniably entertaining.

Sell the BMW AND the 911 and buy a 930. Then you will have the fun, scary, exciting car that also has blistering speed. Oh, but if the 911 back end gets away from you, your in for a treat with a 930 :)

Don't buy a 944 turbo or convert to 3.2. Sell your 911, with the additional $10,000, you can get a good 88-89 3.2 for around $20,000 in Los Angeles.

Conversion can never be as good as the original. You will need to upgrade other items as well.

John, good point. Looking at the original question, as another person said, if the 911 is scary the way it sits then upgrading that may not be the way to go, but there are some other things to look at first. You may want to check your suspension for alignment, good shocks, corner balance. Also, how are the tires? Assuming that everything is in good shape then the next step would be to get to Auto-X events and/or DE's so you can better learn how to handle your car in those situations. As was stated earlier, if the car the way sits is scary then adding the power and torque and weight of the 3.2 will likely make things that much more scary. If you want to eliminate scary then you will probably be really happy with a 951. The balanced weight distribution coupled with the high polar moment of Inertia due to the weights being at the ends of the car make it much easier and safer to drive in those hairy situations, much less likely to swap ends, and easier to catch when you have.

The 911 will have more of a learning curve and be more rewarding in the end, but can be scary in the meantime.

(1) The track abilities of the 911 are most certainly not in question. Im not quite sure where that idea came from. Perhaps because I listed what I "liked" about the 911 and the "reasons" I am planning on purchasing one (read: great warm weather car, fun around the backroads, etc) How this can be interpreted as insulting is beyond me.

(2) Yes.

(3) As previously stated - I do NOT mean to insult 911 owners by refering to non-track attributes of the 911 that I like.

(4) Understandable, and no one would have you do so. By the same token, regardless of model type, we're all on this BBS because we enjoy one thing - DRIVING! Some people simply perfere a different Porsche than others - its no reason to get panties in bunches. Along with many other waterpumpers, however, I really cant stand the attitude that I get from some (read, not all) 911 guys (most of whom think the engine fell out when they open the boot) when I speak with them about the cars.

(5) Since I have never driven an early car with a 3.2L engine, I compared the late 80's Carrera to the late 80's Turbo. It was the closed I could get with my experience, and I thought I would chime in. The reason I highlighted this statement ties into #4 - "totally differerent animal" - is usually what I hear from those individuals described above.

(6) Its not - my comment about the "inferiority complex" was based on your rather strong reaction to statements made by myself and others that none of us even remotely saw as threatening toward your choice in automobiles. In addition to that - why on Earth would I flame the same car I plan to buy in the coming weeks? Im buying a 911 because I LOVE 911's!

(7) You just did. No Im not a lawyer. :D

(8) This is indeed the 911 board - right down the street is the 924/944/968 board - but that doesnt mean you need to be on the defensive when a few water guys show up to offer their opinion on a car they own. :confused:


Overall, if Ive somehow insulted you I cant help thinking it was a mistake on the receiving end, as I obviously didnt post in order to stirr up any trouble. My comments regarding the 911 as a great warm weather car are based on both my experience and the reason I wish to buy one. Around town I cant have fun with my current car because it is TOO capable. I'd like a little bit of edgyness to the ride.

I obviously plan to attend a few DE events following my purchase so I can learn the new vehicle in a safe environment, but since my primary use for the car is going to be backroad fun - thats just what I mentioned. If I had serious track plans, I'd keep the car I have now.

That doesnt mean that a 911 is a horrible track car, it means that Im comfortable with my car and for a novice driver like myself, driving at the limit without the threat of the trademark trailing throttle oversteer is a little more comforting. Im sure if I put you in my car and you put me in yours, you'd "park it" through the corners and Id spin it going in. ;) Im simply looking at this from an amature standpoint - in which case, the 951 is generally considered to be the better choice (re-read: from an amature standpoint).

In any event, again, Im sorry if Ive insulted you - that was most certainly not my intent - I was only trying to answer the tread starers questions about differences between the 951 and a 3.2L 911. Of course... the only logical thing to do would be to get both. ;)

I for one am all for the "get one of each" camp...the dream car is the 930 Cab, but forgettaboutda in the rain, or when I have to park in a public place. The 951 to me is a great performance car,
to me they have nowhere near the cachet of the 911s and 930s, but I still like them. Someday, I'd like to talk the wife into letting me dump the Saab in favor of a 951 for all those times when I don't want to use the 930 but still desire to have fun while driving. But it ain't likely.....http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/spankA.gif

Nickalex86 -

1) Please verify that your 911 tires and suspension are fully functional, including alignment and tire pressures. 911s don't have to be that tricky to drive if properly set up.

2) Autocross to understand the car's behavior at the limit, how to slide it, and how to catch it. [By the way, learning to slide and catch it will be more fun than adding 100 HP.]

Once you are comfortable with hard cornering, think about what you want to do with the car. If your focus is power and not cornering, you will know to focus on achievable power-to-weight ratios. If you love clipping apexes, well, few cars reward a skillful driver like a 911!

Don't put more power into your 911 until the tires, brakes and suspension are up to it. Realize that a 3.2 engine is aluminum rather than magnesium and is heavier, exacerbating the car's ability to spin quickly.

Oh, and if you sell the BMW and pursue the engine swap, do you have other means of transportation while the 911 is under the knife?

This is long...
 

Thanks guys for posting many helpful insights. Sorry I've taken so long to respond after my original post - as I am a sophomore in highschool, I've had plenty of homework keeping me busy (haha i think i surprised some people with that one).

I get the feeling that I should make sure my current car is up to par as far as suspension...alignment...corner weights (?)...etc...and I would LOVE to go Autocrossing or go for a couple DE events, but I'm busy during the school year, and I'm in France during most of the summer.

I guess I'd hate to part with the charisma of the 911. Everytime I walk outside to get in my car and drive to school, I have a silly grin on my face. I cherish the sound of the flat six, but sometimes wish I could keep up with my buddy's '70 camaro in a straight line (silly, I know).

The 951 was attractive because of how cheap it is to crank out plenty of HP through a few upgrades. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that being an inexperienced 16 year old driving that kind of machine would probably lead to...disaster...if not a few speeding tickets that I could do without.

I teach piano to bring in the dough, and I work veryhard to keep my car on the road. I LOVE how easy it is to work on it, as it has provided plenty of opportunities for me to do-it-myself and learn. Every weekend I get even closer to knowing my car inside and out, and lemme tell ya, it has truely been a joy.

After hearing about what you had to say about the 951 being expensive to maintain, I decided to cross it off the list. After looking at all the additional changes I will need to make for a conversion, I am left pondering whether or not to do it. I think one of you said it would take more than $9k. Is that really so? What an expensive car that turns out to be! And what arrangements do I make with the insurance company after swapping engines?

As you can tell, I'm still primitive in my thoughts on this conversion, but I like toying with the idea. After this post, I will go research more of the process (I know I shoulda done that a while back). For now, I'll save the cash and hopefully find some time to drive my car in some events so I can learn how to handle the weight in the back before I go stuffing even more weight back there.

With more to come,
Nick

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/my911t.JPG

'70 911t

Does anyone know of any DE events in my area? I live in Southlake, in the DFW metroplex. Something at the Texas Motor Speedway would be really convenient. Thanks.

Nick

'70 911t

It may just be the photo, Nick, but the ride height looks kind of high on your car. What does it measure from the lip down to the ground (while on a flat surface)?

Beautiful car, by the way.

I believe the local PCA region is the Maverick region, and they have their DE's at Motorsport Ranch which is near Cresson, TX. I'm not sure how far from you that is. TMS probably also has other groups that have events there, but I'm not sure. Check the TMS website for possible events. Here is the Maverick region PCA website, http://www.pca.org/mav/

"Kinda high?" That car looks like it is ready for an off road ralleye! I'd be willing to bet the front end height from the lip is every bit of 27 inches!

Doesn't anyone recognize the classic Paris Dakar look? :D
-Chris

Nick,

Before you look at upgrading your motor, pls make sure that your suspension and brakes are up to the task. It does not matter how much (or little) power you have until you can safely put 100% of it on the road!

If your 70 car has a upgraded set of shocks (bilsteins or koni's) as well as the brakes in excellent shape, and you still are having problems controlling the car, its time for a DE and some track time to learn how to tame the beast. If you have old shocks and brakes that are worn then its time to upgrade.

Personally I replaced my stock shocks with Bilsteins two years ago and it made a world of difference. Next on the list are a set of overhauled calipers, stainless steel brake lines and torsion bars. Then I am going to put a 3.6 in my car as the car will be ready to handle the motor safely.

When you can say that the suspension is up to snuff then its time to upgrade the motor. I have a 3.2 for sale but could not recommend that you stick one in your car until you make sure that the rest of the package will handle the increased power. Just from the looks of your picture you need to get someone to check your ride height and I would do a complete suspension alignment. It appears far too high...

I lived in Dallas for five years recently and the group there is a very good one. Pls get with the PCA group and they can help you. www.pca.org/mav is their URL. I used Mayo and Zim's there to set up my car and they both are excellent. Their DE's are held at Motorsports Ranch, which is just south of Ft. Worth and an easy drive from anywhere in the metroplex.

Joe

Nick,
The PCA group here has 2 or 3 DE's a year. At least one is at TMS. They also have a bunch of autocross events. You'll have to join PCA to get the benefit. I think I remember seeing that they put on some classes for beginners. Good luck on your decision.
Mark

Nick:

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can tell you that the 3.2 in a narrow body is quite an experience. My conversion page offers some insight on the process, which included a brake upgrade. Not gospel, just the way I did it.

No chip since the motor has the original rod bolts.

I agree with Jack, looks like your car could use some lowering, that will help the handleing issue somewhat.

If I can answer any questions, send me a PM.

LOL....26 actually. I always did think it looked kinda funny....I'm measuring from the edge of the fender down - is that the right place to measure?

How do I adjust? And I'm guessing I'll need an alignment afterwards...right? Thanks for your patience.

Nick

'70 911t