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-   -   TEC3r failing? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/959428-tec3r-failing.html)

jdfturbo 06-08-2017 02:30 PM

TEC3r failing?
 
I've had a tec3r on my 1982 SC with a 3.2 intake for many years and it usually runs great. I parked it last week and now it won't start. The check engine light blinks many codes (below) but the wintec software shows none. I pulled a plug to check spark and there is none. Wiring harness looks okay. Fuses look okay. Any ideas?

Fault codes from the check engine light:
12, 21, 25, 28, 33, 35, 41, 43, 51, 55, 58, 63, 65
28 and 65 aren't even in the manual.

Thanks!

kenikh 06-08-2017 02:44 PM

Elecromotive's support has gone to **** so good luck. I'm replacing mine when I can.

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Drbraunsr 06-08-2017 07:43 PM

You might want to reach out to Richard at Clewett Engineering.
He's the west coast expert on the Electromotive and a really helpful guy.

kenikh 06-08-2017 08:12 PM

Richard is great. They only reliable resource.

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otto in norway 06-09-2017 02:17 AM

I would guess that your unit has got a major fault.
If I were you, I would use this oppurtunity to replace the unit with something else. I can highly reccomend DTA s80. I recently replaced my TEC3r for that unit, and I am very pleased indeed. It is a far more flexible unit than the Electromotive. And this results in a crispier throttle resopnse and driveability.
The help from Richard is well and good, but he can't fix the unit for you. So when the Electromotive company is so hard to deal with as I and others have experienced, I would opt for a easier and possibly no more expensive solution.

Good luck!

Raceboy 06-09-2017 05:44 AM

I can always recommend VEMS. It is VERY easy to tune and it works great, also has more features than you would ever need (and what's more important they all work too).

Porsche 935 06-09-2017 07:38 AM

Clear the codes with the computer hooked up and see if the light is blinking on the unit that indicates it is getting a crank signal. I have had quite a few crank sensors go bad over the years.

Cdnone1 06-09-2017 08:54 AM

Not what i wanted to hear. I just bought a TECGT for my 84 Jeep CJ7 I am rescuing. It had an old JFI system from Electromotive that was shot and I am replacing the control unit and harness with their newer GT system.
The engine is a straight six waste fire so they assure me that everything will be straight forward but I got the riot act read to me when I called about a few questions on the wiring harness.
Hope this doesn't turn into an expensive nightmare

turbobrat930 06-09-2017 10:19 AM

I will preface this by saying, if I come off sounding arrogant, rude, a know-it-all, or mean, I am sorry. As that is NOT my intention at all!
With saying that, I am assuming that you did not tune the car, or had any help in tuning the car originally? If so, then you need to learn a little of information in order to help yourself diagnose your car.

READ THIS FIRST.... added after I posted this....
Also, just adding that while sitting back and thinking about your post, you have A LOT of codes to be showing up for only one sensor to be bad. Either the codes are cumulative, and have not been cleared out (if so then do that first), then see what codes you have. OR, your system may have **** its pants. Clear all the existing codes, then CHECK YOUR GROUNDS

First off, I do not know what sort of PC-interface the TEC3r uses. With any of the name brand, modern EFI systems, the program you use on the computer, should have the settings and ability to display all of your inputs, triggers, and sensors. As well as the ability to test them (I.E. text fire each fuel injector individually, or each coil).

I understand that the TEC3r, is by today's standards, archaic. Back in the day, it was a decent system, but Electromotive has done a crappy, sub-par job at keeping up with the times. Clewett does a good job at helping others (customers and non customers alike), but there is only so much you can do with the equipment.

So, assuming you do not want to rip all of the old stuff out of there, and start over, then here is what I would do, if I was in your shoes.

1. An engine needs 3 things in order to run (assuming no mechanical issues). and that is air, fuel and spark.

You said that you have no spark. Do you have fuel (are the injectors spraying?). We know you have air, and if you have fuel (you may not, depending on if the ECU is also not turning the injectors on), then all we need to worry about at this moment in time is the spark.
On most modern ECU's they rely on a few inputs from triggers and sensors before they will send a signal to the coil(s) to give you spark. Also check for battery voltage under cranking. Sometimes, you think you have a good battery, but under cranking, it drops to a level that the ECU will not operate correctly. and also CHECK, AND RECHECK ALL OF YOUR GROUNDS!!!!!

The first, an one that is suspect most of the time is the CPS, or Crank Position Sensor. On Clewett's setup it is mounted off of an aluminum bracket that uses the distributor hold down stud as its mounting point. It reads the teeth (actually Sinewave and the ECU looks for the -2 teeth spot) on the trigger wheel, (which if this is from Clewett) is bolted to the back of the flywheel pulley. If your ECU can give you a real time reading if it is seeing a signal from the CPS while cranking, then that is the first place I would start. If your ECU does not have this due to it's age, then you can either buy a new one (CPS) or if you have access to a O-scope (or PICOscope), you can test the sensor and the strength yourself.
I would also say that this depends on if the sensor is a reluctor or a Hall effect sensor. The hall effect needs its own power source to give the sensor power (which would be another thing to check)
If your ECU incorporates a Cam position sensor, then this would also need to be checked.

On my ECU (Link G4+), I have the following sensors which the ECU uses to run my engine, some of which would not be needed for spark.
Crank Position Sensor (CPS)
Cam Position Sensor (CPS2)
Manifold Air Pressure (MAP)
Intake Air Temp (IAT)
Oxygen Sensor (O2) wideband
Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
Engine Coolant Temp (ECT)
Idle air Control Valve(ICV)
Knock Sensor (knock)
Battery voltage (batt)


In my case, if my Crank or Cam Position Sensors are not supplying the ECU with a signal, then the ECU WILL NOT fire the injectors, NOR will it fire the plugs. So, that's why I would tell you to start there. Also, do you run Coil On Plug (COP)or individual coilpacks? There is a possibility that they could be back as well (not likely), or are they getting the required power as well?
On my ECU software, I can view all of the inputs from ALL of the above sensors and triggers real time, so it would not be that hard to isolate the problem (knock on wood!!).
In your case, you offered numerous codes. I have no idea what those codes mean, without something from Electromotive telling you what they are.

What I just told you to do and look at, is exactly what a mechanic will do if you were to bring your car to a shop. But then, you will be paying $100 to $150 an hour labor for this guy to figure out which you can do yourself. It just takes time (which sometimes none of us have) and some knowledge and tools.

Since your car already has been modified with the aftermarket ECU, you have three choices,
rip all the older stuff out, and replace with upgraded equipment with better support
send your car to a shop, and be ready to spend some money
or learn about what you have in detail, and take care of this, and all future problems yourself.


And the best piece of advice I can give anyone is this:
Do not buy an aftermarket EFI system based on what others say, or have. Do you research by all means, but buy a system that you or your tuner KNOWS AND SUPPORTS!!!!
There is nothing worse than getting a system such as Electromotive or another brand, get it installed, and then not have many people around you that know the in and outs of that brand of ECU or its software.
You will save a TON of money on the dyno when the tuner is very familiar with your ECU's PC-interface, and will know exactly where to look for things and the shortcuts to tuning that particular system efficiently and correctly!!!!!!

jdfturbo 06-09-2017 02:15 PM

Thanks for all the comments. I installed the system and tuned it myself so I'm pretty familiar with it's workings. The software interface doesn't show any codes but the check light does so there is some kind of disconnect in the CPU. I'll check the grounds and the CPS and go from there.

Thanks again.

Walt Fricke 06-09-2017 11:35 PM

I'd check the relays. I had a relay I had installed so the unit had power directly from where the starter cable attaches to the starter over to the unit, with a relay in between. A wire in the relay (those tiny thin ones) coil broke off where it was attached to the external pin. Took me way too long to dope it out. To be sure, this is a stiff race car, and I was racing at Sebring. Not quite the same as sitting in a garage. And maybe you have checked to see if you have power to the ECU, and to the distribution board for the wires to the injectors, and all the connections to the coil packs. With the computer hooked up, does the TPS voltage behave as it should? Though this is a running issue, not really a no start issue. Voltage cranking is always worth checking.

Can you hear/feel the injectors click when cranking the engine? If so, you probably have power. Was the plug you pulled wet?

I bet you've checked the sensor clearance to the toothed wheel. The only one of those I've had go bad was because it wasn't as tight as I thought and it got eaten by the teeth - not hard to diagnose. And I think they work OK if ballpark.

I never hooked up the CDL, so no help there. My box is installed in the engine compartment with the front (where the serial plug is) facing a bulkhead, so I need a mirror just to see if the power light is on. I guess you'd notice if it wasn't on, so probably at least one of the usual relays is working?

Nice puzzle. What happens in a garage? Rodents? Poltergeists? Some connection which opened when the engine and anything else cooled after last you drove it?

RSstop 06-10-2017 06:38 AM

Confirm you are getting 12V at the TEC main plug connector.
Next I would try a different crank sensor.

Here is my experience with last of three TEC3r's I have repaired/tuned.
Bought a race car with that system. Went to pick it up, wouldn't start. Owner said it started an hour earlier. Was getting power to the ECU, sent to Electromotive for repair. They claimed to replace a capacitor. Worked intermittent after. Replaced crank sensor using Richard's hall unit. Tuned car.

Worked great for a year.

Same issue a year later but smelled burnt electrical from the unit. power to unit, but intermittent green light. Sent to Electromotive, they couldn't find anything wrong. Says works perfect on the bench for weeks. Told me to try a new crank sensor.

In the mean time customer couldn't wait. Switched to AEM, never looked back.

As mentioned above, Support is everything for EFI. Richard Clewitt is very good with these. I wonder if the new Electromotive GT series is much improved? I must say, once tuned the TEC3r ran quite well.

Walt Fricke 06-10-2017 07:31 AM

Edit - CEL, not CDL

jdfturbo 08-28-2017 12:23 PM

Fixed
 
I finally just replaced the crank sensor and all is right again. No clue why it was throwing so many seemingly non-related codes.

FYI - there is a newer, more robust crank sensor available than the one that came with my system from 2004.

Cheers!


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