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JohnJL's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Lots of repeated advice to try zero. Worth a shot.

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Al is graciously helping me, I am going to work on a single line of thought for a bit...

To answer the question above about why 6.5 at idle: when I lock out ignition to 6.5 degrees it settles in more than either more or less timing. Also when I retard it more it sputters and runs rich.

Thanks all!
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
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1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:19 PM
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I'm just living in the afterglow of greatness, having been in the presence of both Al Kosmal and Jamie Novak in two days span.

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Old 06-16-2017, 03:21 PM
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worth a try
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[B]Current projects: 69-911.5, Previous:73 911X (off to SanFrancisco/racing in Germany).77 911S (NY), 71E (France/Corsica), 66-912 ( France), 1970 914X (Wisconsin) 76 911S roller..off to Florida/Germany
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:34 PM
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It is a pleasant spot.

Thank you Tippy, BMW, Al, JP, BOY, Kenik, xbmwguy, nux, dap930, omegaman, raceboy, marwil, 76 911s 3.0 and anyone I missed.
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
1985 911 Cab - Wife's toy
1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
1971 911 Targa S backroad toy
Old 06-16-2017, 07:48 PM
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Hang in there. Once you figure it out, you'll be an expert on these issues.
Old 06-16-2017, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Ooh, yeah. Good point.

Need to have "R" in the plug part number!
Um....I checked today, they were NGK BP6ES. Bought a dozen BPR6EY and putting in tonight.

The wires are indeed spiral core EMI supression magnacor wires.
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
1985 911 Cab - Wife's toy
1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
1971 911 Targa S backroad toy
Old 06-17-2017, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJL View Post
Um....I checked today, they were NGK BP6ES. Bought a dozen BPR6EY and putting in tonight.

The wires are indeed spiral core EMI supression magnacor wires.
Fingers crossed!
Old 06-17-2017, 08:04 PM
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Get 'em in? If so, any difference?
Old 06-18-2017, 12:33 PM
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I did, but just briefly. The voltage was marginally smoother and it seemed willing to idle lower in the minute I had it going. Still went into the surging cycle and died though.

I have some more homework to do for Al...
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
1985 911 Cab - Wife's toy
1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
1971 911 Targa S backroad toy
Old 06-18-2017, 02:07 PM
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Ok.

I'd still put 0 degrees across the entire map to see if timing is the cause.

You can always load the last tune easily after to revert back to the old numbers.
Old 06-18-2017, 06:50 PM
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The oscillation, IMO, is when both timing advance and "optimal" AFR's "come together" revving the engine.

Meaning, in one load/RPM, you may be slightly retarded and have a leaner mixture near stoch (not as efficient). Then, the engine wants to slow down putting the load/RPM in a more advanced timing area and the AFR's are closer to say, mid-12's, where the RPM is the highest in efficiency.

The engines revs up.

As the engine revs up, and overshoots, you now hit a point in the fuel map where it runs either too rich, or too lean, so the engine slows down.

Rinse and repeat.

Hard to put into words, but that's what I've seen in my novice tuning experience.

Last edited by Tippy; 06-18-2017 at 07:00 PM..
Old 06-18-2017, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Sometimes you have to go extreme.

I'd put the ENTIRE ignition map at 0 degrees (that's equivalent to ~10 degrees on a single plug) and see how it runs.

I bet there won't be wandering.

8 degrees at 700 RPM is WAY TOO MUCH TIMING.

Next, once warm, use VEAnalyze Live! to adjust fuel map. Use "NORMAL" settings and let it clean up the fuel map for a few minutes.

If it swings too much, it won't work. You'll have to manually tune by watching the ball and wideband.

Slowly adjust cells until it's dead steady idle.
It does indeed cycle when the whole map is set to 0.

I am doing some adjustments manually and making some progress with help offline.

I forgot about VE Analyze live....I did pay for the full tunerstudio but it doesnt look like all my options are turned on. I will look into it.

Thanks
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
1985 911 Cab - Wife's toy
1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
1971 911 Targa S backroad toy
Old 06-21-2017, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJL View Post
It does indeed cycle when the whole map is set to 0.

I am doing some adjustments manually and making some progress with help offline.

I forgot about VE Analyze live....I did pay for the full tunerstudio but it doesnt look like all my options are turned on. I will look into it.

Thanks
If it's still oscillating at idle with the ignition map flat, then your AFR's are swinging causing the engine to go from inefficient to efficient and back to inefficient.

Work the cells that the ball are going into leaner or richer until she's steady at your AFR of choice. It has to be the same AFR around all the touching idle cells, or it will oscillate.

Sometimes, VE Analyze Live! can fix this. If it isn't too swingy, you can run VEAL on "normal" and let it adjust for awhile (don't use "easy", or it'll adjust too quickly exasperating the issue!). If it's swinging bad, only manual changes will work from my experience.

I prefer ~13.5:1 AFR for idle. This gives me smooth running and less need for "acceleration enrichment" when giving it the throttle on takeoff.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:05 AM
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i am reading EFI tuning pages because I am considering going EFI on my 930. I have done a LOT of testing on CIS and I see some really smart guys giving you the correct advice based on what I have learned about my CIS.

reduce timing
lean out the mixture.

my timing went wicked hi (another story) when I installed an MSD in the 930.
the idle sounded extremely thin and was bad so I know what too much timing at idle can do.
with my testing of idle timing on the 930 and on my 77s, I find a reduced timing makes for a MUCH smoother running engine plus it gives it a deeper tone.
I like to run with timing retard connected because it idles better. a lot of guys on here bad mouth this I think because of the term "retard" in relation to timing.
with the LM connected I have also seen the mixture lean out with reduced timing and engine temps go up. (ONLY when idling). not a big deal, this was with idle at 15 ATDC.

with CIS, a RICH mixture will make it surge like your car is doing.
a RICH mixture will also make the RPM's drop down low and come back up to idle speed when you rev the engine and let off the gas. if rich enough it will just die when you let off the gas.

you are getting great advise.
I would set my timing to 0* as said and try to make everything else work around that timing.

BTW, my 930 can idle down to 750 and idle very smooth. I usually keep it 900.

I saw another thread that talked about ending pulse time for the injectors.
EFI Injection Timing

if you have an LM connected I would calibrate it.
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:39 AM
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one other thing to remember.

if the engine does not get a complete burn, that shows as a LEAN indication.

I know CIS and a little about EFI, going against everything I k now about CIS I think my EFI BMW was surging when it was lean(?).
I have just started reading the link tippy posted, this was the first line in the second paragraph

Engines donít like to idle lean; a lean air/fuel ratio is one of the biggest causes of a surging idle.

not what I found true about CIS.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:

Last edited by T77911S; 06-27-2017 at 05:01 AM..
Old 06-27-2017, 04:58 AM
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When going efi I think the best spent money is to have a pro tune it and be part of the process. You will learn a lot and get a good result.
Old 06-27-2017, 05:30 AM
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When going efi I think the best spent money is to have a pro tune it and be part of the process. You will learn a lot and get a good result.
That's if the tuner will allow you to partake. i know my pro tuner friend will not let you know some of his "secret sauce".

Also too, not everyone labeled as a tuner is good. Seen lots of really bad tunes from big name shops.

Point is, knowing the tuner's background and reputation is key to who you pick.

But, to me, learning to tune is really fun barring you have no running issues or say, noise in the system causing funky running.
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Cory - '87 C3.2 (3.4, stock 3.2 heads, cams, intake, with 75mm Mustang TB) Guards/Blk - turbos new to old 1). Borg Warner S366 (66mm comp/73mm turb/0.91 T4 divided ~1.4 bar), 2). Holset HX40 8-blade (58mm/"P" trim 0.84 T4 divided 1.4 bar), 1/4 mile 12.02 @ 129 MPH (street tires), 3). Turbonetics 60-1 HiFi (60mm/"P" trim 0.81 A/R T4 open 1.2 bar), 431whp - MegaSquirt II/EDIS ignition/80lb inj
Old 06-27-2017, 06:05 AM
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had time to think about this more.
if you are locking down the idle and the timing and have adjusted the AFR and it is still doing it then something else is going on.

what about injector dead time and the voltage fluctuations?

have you set the dead times?
if you have set the dead times is the voltage really fluctuating or does the MS just think it is.
check voltage going into the MS. if your meter has a MIN/MAX setting you that.
also put it on AC to measure ripple.

take the car to a shop that can test the charging system on the car. around here we have parts stores that do it for free.

I found this on dead time setting
INjector dead times, getting them right instead of using other peoples numbers | DSMtuners
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 06-27-2017, 07:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #98 (permalink)
 
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Good idea to verify voltage swings.

If you adjust the voltage curve properly, it shouldn't matter. But lets face it, most of us have not dialed this in and taken the time to adjust perfectly, leaving the factory defaults in place hoping for the best!
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Cory - '87 C3.2 (3.4, stock 3.2 heads, cams, intake, with 75mm Mustang TB) Guards/Blk - turbos new to old 1). Borg Warner S366 (66mm comp/73mm turb/0.91 T4 divided ~1.4 bar), 2). Holset HX40 8-blade (58mm/"P" trim 0.84 T4 divided 1.4 bar), 1/4 mile 12.02 @ 129 MPH (street tires), 3). Turbonetics 60-1 HiFi (60mm/"P" trim 0.81 A/R T4 open 1.2 bar), 431whp - MegaSquirt II/EDIS ignition/80lb inj
Old 06-27-2017, 09:22 AM
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Another thought: if you have TPS, why not just go blended and use alpha-n for idle?

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Old 06-27-2017, 09:53 AM
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