Help with Cold start on CIS system
 

Hi All, / Tony :)

Yes I have searched extensivley and researched a heap on this already :), this has enabled me to get to the point I am now and looking for where to head from here please.
My car is a 73 with a 81 ROW SC CIS engine that I have been building for a long time! got the engine running approx 2 months ago, set the timing run it 3-4 times and it was excellent. One week later I tried starting it and it wouldnt start.
It fires but dies straight away, feels like no fuel almost as if firing on some cyclinders but not all.
I hotwired the fuel pump and tried pushing the flap up a few times which does give the squirting pulse sensation in the airbox.

Not sure where I printed it from but I have performed a Fuel pressure test this afternoon to clarify the below that was on the list of to do's.

1. Year of engine: 1981
2. US or RoW (Rest of World): ROW
3. WUR model number: BOSCH 086 OR 980 352 112 no idea which way around these numbers should be :)
4. Ambient temperature at time of test (in degrees C): 11deg celcius
5. WUR Resistance (in Ohms): My multi meter was dead... and we NEED to know this.
6. System Pressure (in bars): 4.7 bar
7. Cold Control Pressure (in bars): 1.65 bar
8. Warm Control Pressure (in bars): 1.65 bar ####
9. Time delta for Cold -> Warm Control Pressure (in minutes & seconds):
10. Residual Pressure @ 5 min (in bars): 1.6 bar
11. Residual Pressure @ 15 min (in bars): 1.5 bar
12. Residual Pressure @ 30 min (in bars): 1.4 bar
13. Residual Pressure @ 60 min (in bars): 0.55 bar

Re #8, I ran this for 10 minutes and it still didn't raise above the Cold Control Pressure which it went to instantly.

When I turned off the fuel pump after #13 the gauge went to 2.0 bar.. not sure if this is relevant.

I need to check the 0hms reading of my WUR which I will do tomorrow on a borrowed multi meter, it seems there is a issue here hence why my Warm Control Pressure didn't rise, so will investigate this.
Would this cause a non start though?

While fiddling with it yesterday I removed #1 injector and this was dribbling fuel while the fuel pump was turned off.. pretty sure this shouldn't be happening.

Another thing I think I need to check is the fuel delivery to each injector? I have 6 bottle which I can use to place each injector in and run for 30 sec's? or 1 minute?

I know a bit to digest and it will make sense to some of you, hopefully I'm heading in the right direction? please let me know if not and where to from here.

Many thanks Brent

Thinking my WUR numbers are wrong... will remove it for better identification.

WUR identification..........
 

Brent,

Bosch WUR (0 438 140 xxx). The last 3 digits identifies a particular unit. Use a 12-volt test light to confirm you have power at the plug when the FP is energized (running). Anomalies I noticed from your information:
a). WUR identification.
b). Power supply to WUR.
c). Fuel leak from injector/s.

The system pressure of 4.7 bar indicates that the FP is good and working. Test the FD by running the FP (with a fully charged battery) only with the fuel injectors installed and removed for leak tests. Include the CSV in the test too. Keep us posted.

Tony

It's a 73 I think the WUR only gets power when the engine is running with a charging alternator.

You missed it........
 

Michael,

The guy has a '73 car with an '81 ROW engine.

Tony

I know. Did he retain his original WUR wiring from the old 73 harness? That's of course a guess.

Thanks for considering this.
Used the 81 Engine/ Chassis loom and then the 73 Dash/ front loom so I think it's as per 81.

Brent

WUR identification..........
 

Brent,

Your WUR should be 0-438-140-089. Confirm that you have the correct WUR and we'll start diagnosing your CIS problem/s. You would need a CIS pressure gauge to help us diagnose the culprit. Keep us posted.

Tony

Hey Tony,

At car now and can confirm WUR # is
0438 140 112 not 089!
Also re wur resistance shows 64 or 45? Depending which way around you put terminals... is that right?
I'm pretty average electrically so you will have to bear with me :)

Just about to check injector lines for leakage.

Regards

Brent

Also should this be connected?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1498877453.jpg

Ttv?......
 

Brent,

That is the TTV (thermotime valve) for the WUR. Look for an electrical plug laying around the 1-2-3 intake runners area. I will look for a picture and post it later.

Tony

Picture of the TTV and electrical plug.......
 

Brent,

Found the picture of the TTV and the plug.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1498884417.JPG

Tony

Hey Tony,

Yes found that plug... is it specific which way round it goes? As it seems to be able to go either way.
Also the wire Colour are different on mine to your picture... mine are red with white and brown.
Received your pm also, will reply further when I get home thanks.
I have also performed some tests and will put that data on this thread also.

Brent

WUR Exchange..........
 

Brent,

This could be your lucky day. I have a collection of assorted WUR's for 911 including a dozen WUR-089 but has only one WUR-112 in my inventory. I have a proposal to you and you have to decide quickly.

I will ship to you a calibrated, tested, and rebuilt WUR-089 if you agree to swap or exchange your -112. My wife is leaving for Sydney in a few days and I decided to stay home this time to finish another engine rebuild. My wife will bring the WUR-089 to Sydney and ship it from there to NZ and you will ship the WUR-112 to Sydney. If this proposal is acceptable to you, we could finalize the detail via PM or emails. And we have a few days to finalize the deal before she flies down under.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1498885851.JPG

I was in NZ last year and saw the vast earthquake devastation in Christchurch. And the city has amazingly bounced back in a short time. You have a beautiful country.

Tony

Tony, he mentioned it is a Euro motor, so it has the TTV and possibly a different WUR than t089. Perhaps the 112 has the vacuum functionality like the 045?

Brent, Tony's wires are Red/White and brown in his photo.

Red/white and brown wires.......
 

Brent,

The color of the wires shown in the picture are same as yours. Same color from factory wiring diagram. We both have the same wires color. I find no differences (?). One of us could be colored blind (joke). You will be fine.

Tony

Perfect timing........
 

Dennis,

If there was something wrong with the wire color, I would deny anything to do about it and put the blame to someone else. Fortunately, you did a good job. You are safe. BTW, US '81~'83 use WUR-090 while the ROW/Euro '81~'83 use WUR-089. WUR-112 is not the correct WUR for Brent's engine and will not work. It is for a completely different application.

Tony

Dennis/ Tony,

Thank you for your assistance!
I will reply in more detail later tonight as just walked in the door.

It runs!, checked, connected, adjusted and changed a variety of different things and it started first time, idles mint.. seemed like a heap of un-burnt fuel coming out exhausts... more about that later.

Re the WUR issue, not sure whats up as it runs with this WUR and has done a month or two ago plus previous owner fine... perhaps I have got a different engine to what I thouht I had? Checked the engine Type on casing below fan and its a 930/10, does that help?

Brent

Read Vereeken's recent post.........
 

Brent,

Engine type 930/10 is the stock engine type for '81 SC ROW and they use WUR-089. If you are happy and satisfied to use a completely different WUR, it is a decision you have to make. The heater resistance (Ohms) of your WUR will produce a completely different fuel pressure profile than the recommended WUR-089. Vereeken (Michel) recently posted some information for '81 SC RoW control pressure chart. Take a good look. Even the test procedures for these WUR's are different. Keep us posted.



Tony.

Do the deal with Tony and be done with it! He is THE man with this stuff...

Didn't get a chance to report last night, but heres where I got to. It Started and ran :)

After spending hours Friday night and Saturday morning reading more threads about CIS etc, printed testing precedures for various parts and armed with Tony's list of things to check I tackled it Saturday afternoon.
Put Battery on charge
Checked all Fues's.
Added 20lts of Fuel.... can't hurt.
Removed Fuel cap. I read somewhere that it could possibly be air locked and I think I put my fuel tank breather together after I first had it running.
Check WUR identification and it seems I have the wrong one for my engine type 930/10. My WUR # is a 0438 140 112 not 089
Tested my WUR 0hms reading which was 39 or 45 depending on which way around you put the pins on the plug. My electrical abilities are poor so I don't hold a lot of hope that I'm doing it 100% correctly.
My TTV was disconnected, connected that.
Then I started fuel leak tests of the line after disconnecting from injectors, with FP running is was dribling out all of them! Connected Injectors and was dripping from some and squirting out of a couple. This is not good!, thinking my FD is cactus.
I remember Tony mentioing that the little 3mm Allen key adjuster shouldn't be used to get a engine running but for later tuning. The way it worked in my head was perhaps this is too Rich and constantly letting fuel in when FP is running. I turned it anti-clockwise almost 2 turns until I had no Fuel dripping from the fuel lines whilst FP is running.
Noticed a small weep from bottom connection of Fuel Accumulator so gave that a tighten.

Reconnected all Fuel lines, injectors, removed all tools. Didn't want to run the FP for long before starting just in case it decided to leak fuel in to pistons for some reason..., turned the key and cranked to start and it fired straight up and idled well albeit a little high in my opinion but rev counter not operating so didn't fiddle.

So what fixed it? could have been one thing or all things I don't know yet but I will be able to elimate a few things when I get more time to do so. At the moment just happy it started again.

To all those that offered suggestions and helped point me in the right direction, THANK YOU couldn't have done it without your help.

Brent

Thanks Tony! also replied your PM.

Great offer... I'm just nervous to swap it out just yet as I have it running now and need to do some other testing once it can drive. It operated fine before I purchased the engine so not sure of why this is wrong.
I may look at purchasing a 089 from you in due course so I can at least check and have the correct type for my engine.

Brent

For your peace of mind.........
 

Brent,

You probably don't know me and that's OK. What I am offering you is an opportunity to have a calibrated and rebuilt WUR-089 that you could use and test in your car. Hundreds of people that borrowed either a WUR or FD gave me a substantial refundable deposit via PayPal. And I am now breaking my own protocol just to extend help to you. My wife is leaving for Australia next week and be back home after 8 weeks.

She could mail the WUR-089 from Sydney to NZ if you decide to accept a swap. The WUR you have now will make your engine start and run like most WUR's but you will not have the optimum performance from WUR-112. Contact people in NZ or AUS or Europe with '81-'83 SC RoW and inquire about their WUR's.

If you are not completely satisfied with the performance of my WUR-089, simply send it back to Sydney no question asked and I will have the core returned to you from Sydney. Your window of opportunity is starting today till end of August. Wish you the best. Thanks.

Tony

Tony,

It's not that at all, I have no issue with that. So many good reviews on the board and you have been soooo helpful on my thread issue over the last few days as well.

I think I will take up your offer of a exchange WUR, although mine seems to be ok it will not be optimum at some points so may as well get it right.
Lets sort the details out on messages.

Regards

Brent

Let's close the deal.......
 

Brent,

Let us put this on record. Please post the heater resistance (Ohms) again and vacuum test both the side and top ports using a hand vacuum pump. Post the data. And I will have the package iin my wife's luggage. Thanks.

Tony

Update.......
 

Brent,

My wife arrived in Sydney 3 days ago and got a phone call from her asking me what to do with the WUR-089. Were you able to measure the heater resistance value and test the vacuum? In case you changed your mind about the swap just let me know. There is someone from OZ interested to get it. Thanks.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Yes still intend to do exchange as discussed.
My Electrician is slowing the process at the moment, however as mentioned it could be 2-4 weeks before I'm ready to send.
Will post test results when I can get the information you require.

Regards

Brent

Your engine could never run properly with a -112 WUR. The -112 WUR is from a Euro 930 and will only enrich under boost, which your engine will never see. Also the -112 is tuned for 6.0bar system pressure and has a slower cold warm up cycle than required for the SC. The '73 CIS has no vacuum enrichment at all and used a throttle switch. The wiring harness would not be the same as an '81. I would check all of these things. Having the same CCP and WCP means the WUR is not receiving electricity so the pressure will never decrease and engine will flood out as it warms.

Great info!
On track to swap out my WUR for the correct one with Tony.
Win win for both I'm thinking.

Thank you RarlyL8

Tony,

Have got the info you requested.
0hms resistance yesterday was 26.4 0hms, temp was 4.2 deg celcius... yes COLD.
The side port was .8bar and holding
Top port seemed to be .5bar and leaked away?
I went to Four places to find a vacuum pump or someone that knew what to do... we have no idea what the values should be so not sure if done correctly or if the pump was working correctly.
All I do know is that it comes off a car that does run.

Please confirm ASAP if you're still happy to proceed with exchange and I will courier to Australia as discussed.

Regards

Brent

WUR swap.......
 

Brent,

I have the WUR waiting in Sydney, Australia since last week. Send your WUR to the address I gave you earlier and my wife will send the WUR-089 to Christchurch, NZ. Thanks.

Tony

Hi All,

Have been making some progress to resolving my issues, I took up the offer from Tony to exchange to the correct WUR for my model engine, he also kindly offered lifetime CIS support which is great :)

That just arrived on Friday, I installed Saturday arvo and 2nd crank of the key it fired into life, all was well for about 1 minute then rev's started dropping and it was leaning out, gave it some revs which would keep it running but as it warmed up leaned out further and shut down.
I was forced into sorting out a vacuum leak test system... read a few posts and Tony has given me some ideas. In reality very few of us have the required items to make this work, if you do have a compressor its likely to be 70-170 PSi, unlikely to have a regulator that you can wind back enough for the required low pressure of under 10 PSI.
I had googled low pressure pumps and come across an aquatic tank pump for blowing bubbles for Fish, found one that pumped 192 l/hr at 2.3 PSI, of course this was in USA so needed to source one locally. Sunday morning I went to a local pet shop and brought the following pump... approx $15 USD.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1501997437.jpg
Plumbed it up into the brake booster inlet and blocked up the rest of the holes once the Air box Pope was removed and worked a treat!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1501997538.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1501997560.jpg
The pump as two speeds, low and high, ran on high to quickly get the pressure up and inflate the glove then switched to Low, sprayed away with my detergent/ water spray bottle and listened and looked for leaks, found one at the base of the pop off valve.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1501997663.jpg
I have cleaned it down and filled as best I could with some JB Weld, leaving overnight to cure and will re check again.
Does this look enough to cause the issue I'm having?
Getting the Pope off and relevant hoses with engine in the car is a PITA, not wanting to do that many times if I can avoid it.

Any suggestions would be helpful... have emailed our CIS guru Tony for his continuing support to get this running smooth.

Brent

The cover should be tested for leaks too so the rubber stopper here defeats that goal. Same with the pope hat I believe.

Agree I should inspect those also.

If I had tested with the cover on I wouldn't have found this leak, will concentrate on this area first then I can add cover and see if there is still pressure loss.

Brent

So, JB weld held good and I couldn't find any other leaks. Obviously with it in the car does make it impossible to check everywhere. After turning my pump off it did seem to keep the glove inflated on the throttle body pretty good but hard to say how much loss I got.
Performed Fuel tests with guages and all read low compared to the specs for my 089 WUR, not sure if this is because of my ambient temp being 15deg?

Started the engine and it fired first time, idled up nice and dropped as temp came in, didn't lean out as like previous time so maybe that leak was enough to cause the problem.
I adjusted idle up a little and with a few blips everything was good.
Removed cap to check oil and it died!, tried restarting and it wouldn't start warm, pressure was 2.5 bar.
Left it a hour or so while doing other jobs and after 2nd attempt it did start with a little help from throttle, adjusted the idle a bit more to around 850rpm and when warm again shut off and restarted fine so fingers crossed!

Hope to get it out for a drive tomorrow for the first time and will see if any other symptons show up.

Brent

Fuel pressure........
 

Brent,

I got your PM. Measure the residual pressure:
After the FP stopped
After 10 mins.
After 20 mins.

System pressure = 4.6 bar (66.7 psi)..........spec. (66~75 psi.). Set it to 72 psi.
Control pressure = 1.05 bar. Is this a typo? Please verify.
Warm con. press = 2.7 bar (after 3.5 mins. Vac hose connected). Too low.

Is the vacuum hose connected to the side port of theWUR? Is the vacuum hose getting vacuum at idle? Do you have a hand vacuum pump?

What is your cold idle engine RPM? Is AAR working? Be patient and we will sort this engine very soon. Keep us posted.

Tony

Just to update other readers Tony and I have been exchaning emails to get this issue resolved.
Have removed the AAR and tested with 12v and is working fine.
I pulled apart the WUR as it was reading lower than we would like and although Tony had reconditioned it he wasn't happy with readings. Although after inspection and quering the numbers it was spot on but we had overlooked the cold ambient temp I'm dealing here in my winter so all was good there for my control pressure.
My system pressure was low at around 66.7 PSI, so I removed the plunger from the FD and found and made some shims to increase the System pressure, with the various washers/shims I had I could get either 69 or 73 PSI so currently set at 73 PSI.
I have just received a Vacuum hand guage to check some other items that need testing.

I have had a variety of mixed cold and warm starts, rough running, lack of power, black oily substance out exhaust etc and then the day later it seemed to be running pretty good. I'm yet to set the CO with a proper gas analyzer which I hope to do in a few days.

I wonder if my warm control pressure is a little low at 49PSI with the current mixture so depending on how that test goes where that ends up.

Will update again after some more vacuum tests, CO adjustments and Tony returns from vacation to offer some more guidance.

Brent