Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > Porsche 911 Technical Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Air deflector refinement

Earlier air flow check revealed need for deflector inside bucket. Purpose = better distribution of air across entire condenser's face. Large, single blade deflector was added. Improvement but bucket's top corners = dead zones. 2 more smaller blades are being added. Intent is dead zone fix.





Larger blade's unstable.




Strut added.






Approximates internal position.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-04-2017, 09:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Final Fit-Check





Aviation duct. Interior in static form is “semi-smooth” bore. Increase compression and interior gets rougher due to folds.




Intake. 4” diameter stack fits without needing to crush it. Intake opening is about 2” up from bottom edge of rocker. What happens when driving car through standing water when water exceeds level of intake?




Looking up along intake stack. 18 ½” height fits with a little extra space overhead.




Looking towards front of car. Smooth bore duct does not clamp well to other smooth bore duct---can see it slipping out… config is too soft-soft for solid contact. That’s the only joint like it. Will silver tape it. Hard section seen here mounts to car. Stack jams forward making good contact with car… thinking to fender contact points with thin rubber attached to duct. Bad news = Targa cap nuts are obstructed. Need simple duct connect-disconnect system so cap nuts are easy to get to. Velcro attached to car… strapping duct to car? Not sure of this is Lunatic-Fringe or good idea. Will Velcro live well in wheel well… talking front section of well. Placed behind wheel my guess is Velcro would weld itself from heat… then slowly weep. Need one beefy connection at hard-section. ??? If you have quick-release idea for this area… bring it on please. (Was going to use existing clamps around “hard section” connected to tong bracket mounted to car. Doable but surly there’s a quicker duct-on/off solution.)




Looking up at 90 degree. After stack turns towards car’s azz-end, there’s a straight, short length of horizontal duct… turbine positions here. Above, turbine is end piece of duct at right. (Wanted to position turbine next to condenser to get it away from cabin but from over the wheel to the condenser, duct arches all the way. Still believe noise is manageable. Goal = just enough sound to know turbine is running when standing next to fender.




Looking towards front of car into turbine's future home. CEET connects turbine housing to air-bucket. Small problem is just seen here---there's not enough space for sound deadening insulation that is planned to envelop ducting near turbine.




Above wheel. CEET needs to be formed into triangle profile in this area in order for it to jam up into wheel well’s wedge as far as possible. 3’ CEET section is a few inches too long here. Look carefully and it compressing randomly is seen. To make CEET’s bore as smooth as possible, need to cut 3” off.




“Wedge space” above wheel CEET needs to jam into. Wire inside CEET = stiff but formable. Once formed, wire has insignificant memory. This duct material naturally contours to arch of fender well---is much easier to deal with than hard duct. Excellent idea on this stuff---thanks Raff. MONSTERon… TY to you for aviation source.




Was going to zip tie duct here to engine lid release cable's sheath. Not happening. Need alternative solution. Duct arches up here so tension alone will secure it to a point. Jamming it into wedge will likely also hold it. Weight of intake and turbine sections are supported by forward attachment. Point = CEET section weighs very little.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.

Last edited by Discseven; 08-06-2017 at 03:38 PM..
Old 08-06-2017, 12:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage


Port re-positioning plan has changed. Intake junctions are close enough that only slight mod is needed to make this connection---rotate port down and bend it forward slightly. Outlet port is more challenging. Did not want to add splices (in order to prevent increasing seam count in AC system) however, adding a long extension outlet port to the condenser has bad vibes. Prefer stubby outlet on condenser and adding splice between existing hose's end and condenser. Is on Tuesday's menu.

Arduino arrived. Dealing with program loading & testing is planned for tomorrow.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-06-2017, 12:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage


Existing clearance between top rear of condenser/bucket and fender.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-06-2017, 03:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
kuehl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Stuck in NJ
Posts: 2,836
Garage
Uncle Carl,

Interesting project for sure.
You may want to think about the particles hitting the fan blade,
this is what happens to a supercharger blade's leading edge when you
run without an air filter for 6 hours

__________________
Kuehl
1987 911 cab, modified
https://griffiths.com/
Old 08-09-2017, 02:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Excellent point out CG. TY!

Sets plan in motion to pull turbine house after few running hours for look-see at how Glenfilter---with 1/8" screening filter---is performing. If blades look like your reference... adjustments will be made. Replacement blades (with free motor) = $10. If replacement blades are ordered, obviously 1/8" existing filtering is not cutting it. Finer screen will install. Was hoping to avoid filter cleaning/changing. We'll see.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-10-2017, 03:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Plan was to program Arduino on Tuesday but data cable needed to do so… couldn’t find it. Another should arrive tomorrow.

External brushless turbine housing

Working on 3-wire feed to motor.





Custom grommet mold positioned.




Easy Mold stuff'd in.




Cures in minutes.




Rather than pass 3-wires “naked” through air stream, am playing with a wing’d-conduit idea. Goal = see how many hours can be absorbed by this miniscule part.




Rough model was made, then pancake’d it for template for final version. Notch for 3-wire passage at leading edge of foil… knife-in-waiting.






Like to think this investment will preclude my having to disassemble system downstream in order to replace wiring and then do what’s being done now.






Test fit. In final config, 3mm machine screws install from inside.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-10-2017, 03:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Intake stack




Hard-duct bend that transitions vertical intake to turbine-blower is locked into bend-position that was proof’d during “final fitting.” (If not “locked” into position, bendy segments rotate out of position leading to bend loosing preferred form.)




Two reasons for insulation. 1. Turbine/motor silence (to targeted degree) 2. Thermal isolation of cooler air being pumped to air-bucket. Focus at moment is silencing.






Plan is to install 2-layer insulation near turbine/motor to start with. Single layer of foam on CEET duct to end including covering air-bucket. Will bench test that set-up... first to establish good volume of air through condenser (reprogramming Arduino until preferred turbine/motor speed is achieved.) Noise level consideration follows.

Foil coated fiber insul was purchased first thinking to do entire wrap using this material. Bad idea. Even if cut edges are sealed, foil skin is very delicate---look at it too long and it tears. Once foil layer is compromised… stuff is a sponge. That revelation led to getting closed cell foam... with near bullet-proof foil. (Challenge faced with insulation was ordering from USA supplier---there’s lots of China insulation sellers online. No offense to China but impatience is a factor.) Fiber'd insulation being a potential sponge requires decision: dump it, or, go extra mile to make what’s in hand work. Will go extra mile(s). Even though fiber'd insul is below foam, zero water tolerance should be tolerance. Waterproofing solution of some sort is ahead.




Double-layered silencing insulation has turned 4” O.D. into 5”. Stack fit at 4” measure with a little clearance remaining. Will make sure 5” stack O.D. fits before moving ahead.




Test stack. Bottom fiber insulation layer is fully in place here. Temporary top foam layer is wrapped on vertical and straight after bend---makes no sense to cover bend if thing doesn't fit. Test fit = snug. Is good news.


CEET duct area

Where CEET duct will position, it’s been suggested to use car’s structure as a duct. Car already offers 2 sides… enclosure side needs creating. (Idea spins off Porsche using 917’s tubular framework as oil line.)




Foil cast is made to study crevice space above wheel. Above, looking down on cast. Below is profile view of space. Top of cast in profile view would tilt to right at top slightly to mimic actual angle of space. (Glass sill is close to being horizontal in car.)



Decide for yourself---conclusion here is there’s necessary air-space for creating a “car duct.” After tossing idea around a bit… conclusion = PRO: car-duct would position duct as far from tire as possible. CON = making car part of “duct” means brushless turbine’s noise-energy will transmit through car to some degree. Based on this “con,” “car-duct” idea respectfully bites the dust. Am going forward with CEET duct over wheel area.


Mounting plate - stack-to-car






Intake stack’s mounting plate being proof’d. Tiny holes are for registration at this stage. Between car and mounting plate will be rubber fender---epoxy gel holds fender to plate… fender keeps quick-release strap clamp in position whenever stack is removed.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-10-2017, 04:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage


Plan was to connect intake stack to car at “bulbus” area---indent in cast, white arrow. Alternate contact point is flat surface area---green arrow. Given rise of “friction-fit,” (due to new 5” O.D.) static demand on this mount has decreased measurably. High g-forces from bumps, etc, are still taken into consideration. Hefty screws are in mind together with fail-safe quick-release on clamp.

Not fond of putting holes in tub but screw-job seems most appealing here. Less secure idea = wonderful… until something makes unwanted escape.


4-wire cable



Meat on this cable seems appropriate for wheel bay / engine bay application. Not liking it running on cabin’s floor board to below-dash location. Feed it through center tunnel?---anyone feed a fish through tunnel and pull a cable in there?
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-10-2017, 04:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SCadaddle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Central Mississippi
Posts: 919
42 year R/C guy here again.......

I like the "industrial grade" fan unit you have found. It should last MUCH longer than the typical Hobby King EDF units. The issue you have with the ESC not immediately going into "run" mode is simple: We use the brushless motors with propellers as well as EDF units. On a fixed wing model with a brushless motor, the LAST thing you want when connecting the flight battery in the model is to have the brushless motor start and the propeller filet your hand(s)! Usually the ESC's are programmed so that they recognize the "no throttle end point" of the transmitters throttle stick when armed. By the same token, most ESC's need to "see" and "learn" the full throttle end point of the transmitters throttle stick to provide full power. So what I would do:

1) Turn the servo tester knob to full power then connect power. Listen for the ESC to emit a tone or series of tones.

2) Now with the ESC still powered, turn the servo tester knob full opposite direction, as in "the no throttle position". Again, the ESC might emit a tone or series of tones.

3) Now with the ESC still powered, rotate the knob to full power. The brushless motor might just run a lot faster. IF you have a way to measure the amps draw when the system is running, go ahead and hook that up first. Otherwise, you might find you have allowed "the magic smoke" to escape from the ESC. And once it's escaped there is no putting it back in there........

And remember: Amps X Volts = Watts

If you are providing at most 40 Amps X 14.4 Volts you are making a whopping 576 Watts. Remember hair dryers from the 1970's boasting 1300 Watts?!

Now, as for how you desire your system to actually turn the brushless motor ON full blast when the system is started, think along the lines of a Y-harness servo connector to the servo tester. Maybe have one side of the Y go to a relay or the sorts? We typically use the Y harnesses on the aileron function of the fixed wing models with a servo in each wing. Good luck!

Last edited by SCadaddle; 08-10-2017 at 07:06 PM..
Old 08-10-2017, 06:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
^^^ 42 years RC experience... you must know RDF/ESC/brushless stuff inside-out SC! Curious... what do you pilot?

ESC having "fail safe" so chit wouldn't be flying off in surprise-mode made perfect sense when I discovered it. Was not good news. Immediately knew more stuff was going to be necessary in order to include brushless. Solution is Arduino. When AC compressor gets power, there's a power circuit off compressor that used to feed Spal on fender condenser... that curcuit will feed ESC now. ESC's BEC 5v wires connect to Arduino. Arduino will first initialize ESC---take ESC through fail-safe mode---then send signal to ESC for some yet to be defined turbine/brushless speed. Power to compressor shuts OFF... turbine/brushless shuts OFF. Have yet to bench test to sort out what turbine/brushless speed is optimal. Goal is max air flow through condenser and minimal turbine/brushless noise. Am waiting on 12v motorcycle battery (so I don't have to go back and fourth to car batt) to bench system.

I forgot amps for system---seemed in order when ESC and brushless were considered. ESC is Turnigy Plush 40a. When running turbine by itself, seemed 1/3rd throttle would be doable. That did not take in "burden" turbine will experience when ducted and having to push air through condenser. Am up'ing throttle estimate to just above 1/2. Once optimal speed is sorted, plan is to bench run entire system for 3 hours... checking ESC and brushless temp along the way.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.

Last edited by Discseven; 08-12-2017 at 12:32 PM..
Old 08-12-2017, 12:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Wire feed to brushless




Wing’d conduit plan is dead. Reason being it being a hard-wire solution. This means removal of turbine/brushless housing from external housing for servicing would require cutting wires, removing wing, then reconnecting wires and reinstalling wing. Simpler direction is being taken...







Pulse-3-wire connection. ESC (electronic speed control) determines pulse signal sent to brushless motor. In this system’s case, Arduino will tell ESC what pulse interval to send motor. (No water-proofing for motor. Apparently brushless motors work submerged. Will see how that premise holds up over time.)




Black wire is dead-wire at brushless. Inside engine bay, black wire takes power from compressor circuit feeding 12v to ESC---essentially, black wire to ESC turns air ON to condenser. Red, blue, yellow wires run from ESC to brushless motor. (Blue and yellow wires are tab-coded at ends. Wires must connect to brushless in correct sequence for motor to run... also run in desired direction. If wrong direction, move any two wire connections.)


Waterproofing



Fiber'd insulation. Not optimal insul for this particular app given sometimes-wet environment... appeal is noise absorption. Need to prevent it from converting to sponge. (Ducting will also be waterproof'd. Closed-cell foam insul goes over fiber'd layer.)




Plasti Dip'ing exposed edges.




Coating is handle-dry in 30 minutes. 4 hours to cure.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.

Last edited by Discseven; 08-12-2017 at 03:44 PM..
Old 08-12-2017, 03:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #32 (permalink)
Registered User
 
pete3799's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Vermont
Posts: 6,133
Garage
I just know a flux capacitor is going to show up in this thread before you're done.
__________________
Pete
79 911SC RoW
"Tornadoes come out of frikkin nowhere. One minute everything is all sunshine and puppies the next thing you know you've got flying cows".- Stomachmonkey
Old 08-12-2017, 03:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #33 (permalink)
The Mighty Pieholio
 
Bob Kontak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: North Canton, Ohio
Posts: 12,986
Garage
Random thoughts from the afflicted................



__________________
1981 911SC Targa
Old 08-12-2017, 05:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #34 (permalink)
Knee Pads are Overrated!
 
Rawknees'Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Norf TexASS
Posts: 7,036
^^^

Nice!

Now all KinkyKarl needs to do is add a mini-Gatling gun to the tip and ----->


Old 08-12-2017, 08:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete3799 View Post
I just know a flux capacitor is going to show up in this thread before you're done.
Wild Boars ran off with flux-cap. Will install flyingcow instead .
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.

Last edited by Discseven; 08-13-2017 at 05:09 AM.. Reason: learning to spell
Old 08-13-2017, 04:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #36 (permalink)
Eng-o-neer
 
Tremelune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Pawling NY
Posts: 2,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discseven View Post
Plasti Dip'ing exposed edges.
Interesting technique! I wonder how this would work out with engine sound pads over time.
Old 08-13-2017, 06:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #37 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tremelune View Post
Interesting technique! I wonder how this would work out with engine sound pads over time.
Trem... nice idea. Stuff's available in black. Think it would work to hold sound pad edges together (over time.) Also give exposed edge a cleaner look.
__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-14-2017, 07:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #38 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Discseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,741
Garage
Arduino & Zebra case



Using UNO. Board measure = 2.75” x 2.25”. Robotshop... Arduino Uno R3 USB Microcontroller - RobotShop




Raw Zebra case.




Beta program/sketch is being loaded---cable is connected to laptop.
IDE error message = avrdude stk500_getsync() not in sync resp=0x30
Fix = reboot Arduino (at Arduino Reset)




On assumption that design & production quality are generally going downhill for the sake of shareholder profit---and I believe they are---this Zebra is one of those things that when you look at it... you're damm happy someone thought it through as creatively as they did... then also made it as well as they did. Zebra instantly qualifies as fine art---belongs in MOMA IMHO. Amazon... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M6NEIXE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


__________________
Karl ~

Current: '80 Silver Targa w /'85 3.2, '79 Anthracite 930
Prior: '74 Carrera. '79 Silver 930. '79 Black 930.
Old 08-14-2017, 08:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
Knee Pads are Overrated!
 
Rawknees'Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Norf TexASS
Posts: 7,036
KinkyKarl,

So you are designing this Godzilla blower (not like THAT ) as a blow-through, arrangement, correct? Just thinking out loud, but it seems like you could have a much shorter run of intake pipe, and place the blower motor farther away from the cabin, if you installed it in the exit ducting and used it as a "draw through" fan. Dumb idea?!
Old 08-14-2017, 10:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:02 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2017 Pelican Parts LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.