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ROW '78 911 Targa
 
timmy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Rutager, you are using tuner studio correct?
You need to make the changes while the car is running and then save and write them to the ECU for them to become permanent.
You can just drive the car with it plugged into the MS ECU on auto tune so it adjusts itself in real time, and then do the same. (Save and write)
I’d be happy to go over it with you on the phone at a pre arranged time.
PM me or email me if you want to.
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Dennis
Euro 1978 SC Targa, SSI's, Dansk 2/1, Bitz kit EFI.
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Old 10-07-2019, 01:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #581 (permalink)
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Guys,

Thanks for the links and information, Iíll read up and on Wednesday, I took work off for my annual blood work in the morning and after that, I will go for another run with data logging and auto tune and see what I can come up with.

Stay tuned (pun originally unintended, but you got to take what you can!)
Rutager
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 10-07-2019, 04:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #582 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
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Join Date: Apr 2000
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Just be aware that your VEAL (aka autotune) is only as good as your AFR target table. The ECU will try to match the engine operating AFR to that table. Best starting point is to set the entire table to 13.5AFR and get the engine to match that. Then you can fine tune cruise and WOT AFR targets based on actual data from the log.

Have fun. This is really the fun part as the engine will (should) get noticeably better as you refine the fuel tune.
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Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
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Old 10-07-2019, 05:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #583 (permalink)
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Wednesday update:

Took a bit to start and I manipulated the VE table around the idle area to lean it out and it started smoothing out. I hooked the timing light up and my timing was at 5 BCTW! I hadnít touched it and the bolt was tight. When I loosened the bolt slightly, the idle went up and as I touched the vac pod to turn, I had a surge. Starting to suspect I might have an issue with the advance mechanism.

I had it rebuilt by Parts Klassic about two years and 30 miles ago- just before I decided to go EFI. The work appeared to be at a very high level.

Suggestions on testing?

Rutager
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 10-09-2019, 09:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #584 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al lkosmal View Post
You should not need an upgrade to datalog, copy and email these files.

M'squirt tune files have an .msq extension
M'squirt log files have an .msl extension

Your latest tune file will be titled: CurrentTune.msq
Your logfile will be titled by date: 2019-10-07 for example

If you do not know where (which folder) these files are located, you can use the search function in File Explorer, using the terms *.msq and *.msl to search your drive(s) for all files of these types. Once located you can attach them to an email.

regards,
al
Hi Al,

I just had the unregistered version of the data logging software, so I bought the registered version today and was able to view my whole drive.

I need to verify my distributor before I do any more chasing of the tune.

Very much appreciate your offer to take a look at my log- letís make sure that ignition is working properly so Iím not chasing my tail.

Thanks,
Rutager
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 10-09-2019, 09:27 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #585 (permalink)
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Hi Rutager,

yes, the timing has been suspect all the time for the last couple of weeks, so you need to exclude it from the troubleshooting.
The timing should be dead stable at idle, and also should be exactly the same each and every time you start the car. It should ramp up to whatever advance your distributor is set to at high rpm. This also should be very stable and 100% repeatable.
If the distributor has been rebuilt, then this should be the case...but you never know. Maybe they did something wrong.
Your dizzy has one vacuum line going to it, make sure it comes from the correct side of the throttle body, and make sure it is a brand new line.

Good luck,
Jan
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before: '69 Porsche 911T bahama yellow
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #586 (permalink)
 
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Hi Jan,

Vacuum line is new and on the lower port. Iíve been reading up on the 123distributor and am just about to order one; seems like a great part with full adjustability.

Rutager
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 10-11-2019, 01:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #587 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
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Personally I think the distributor is fine. It is possible the vacuum line is suspect but that is now replaced.

The screen shot you posted earlier shows a high idle. The stock distributor will just be starting the mechanical advance ramp which is why you see both the timing changes and idle oscillation.

You need to concentrate on stabilizing the idle around 900rpm to get below this advance threshold. Then you can set the timing correctly. And at that point both idle and timing will be stable.

BTW, When you are looking at idle location on the VE table you will notice that there are 4 highlighted cells around the cursor indicator. You will likely need to make all 4 of these highlighted cells the same VE value. I call this an "idle island". This ensures that any slight variation in rpm/MAP signal does not change the amount of fuel delivery and results in a highly stable idle. Works very well with high-overlap cams as well.
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Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 10-11-2019, 08:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #588 (permalink)
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I did buy the 123 Distributor, Iím just too suspicious of my distributor- I set TDC in prep to install the 123 and the rotor on the old one was quite a bit advanced- seems like it always ends up in a location that doesnít mesh with were I set it last?

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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 10-27-2019, 05:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #589 (permalink)
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Hereís the new one: and the spec for my old one and the screen shot of the settings of the new 123. I have left the vacuum out since I donít quite understand the best use of it yet.

Note, the spec sheet is the advance of the distributor and needs to be doubled because the crank goes around twice for each cam turn.





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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 10-27-2019, 06:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #590 (permalink)
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Update, I got the 123 distributor in and programmed up. I do have a MSD ignition and the information out there wasnít super clear on if it would work, but I had found enough other posters on Pelican who wired up the distributor with CDI; just takes using the wire that comes from the CDI to the points on the distributor and hooking up the wire that would normally go to the coil on an conventional ignition.

Took a lot of cranking to get the car to start when I had no advance at idle and even 5 degrees wasnít much better, so I ďdialedĒ in a 10 degree advance at 500 rpm and that did the trick, quick start.

So now Iím at a point where I get good start and 50 Kpa at idle. My problem now is that after a short bit my start up idle enrichment starts dropping idle down and then after a minute or so, car goes super rich and dies and wonít restart.

I did do a data log and will try and get it on a USB stick so I can load it into a modern computer so I can email it and take Al up on his generous offer to look at the log and see what is happening or not happening.

Rutager
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 11-03-2019, 03:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #591 (permalink)
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Iíve been in contact with Al Kosmal and he has been great in tracking down some issues. Currently it appears that the software may be using a tune that is a sample tune in the software not the one I have supplied.

We still need to do some more investigation to determine what is happening.

Thanks so much to Al for all his excellent help and insight.

Rutager
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 11-07-2019, 04:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #592 (permalink)
 
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i'm sure i'm speaking for a lot of us, that we would like to be there to help in person...would be much more efficient, quick...a lot more details would get looked into and troubleshooted.

all i can do for now is give some moral support, i'm sure you're almost there.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #593 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wreckah View Post
i'm sure i'm speaking for a lot of us, that we would like to be there to help in person...would be much more efficient, quick...a lot more details would get looked into and troubleshooted.

all i can do for now is give some moral support, i'm sure you're almost there.
Thanks Jan,

All support welcome!

I sent Al my data log and a file called current tune from last night and when he opened the file it was showing the constants for a 5 cylinder of a different size. So several possibilities, one is the software has some sample tunes and the one does have the 5 cylinder specs in it, but Iím positive I didnít have that one loaded, because it has a different looking ďdashĒ, so could be somehow the software is using an unload file, or the file I sent him called current tune was one of many current tunes stored- the odd thing was the date and time on the file was from when I did the data log to send him.

Have any thoughts?

Thanks,
Rutager
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 11-07-2019, 05:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #594 (permalink)
ROW '78 911 Targa
 
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Could be a communication error from laptop to ECU.
Are you using a usb conversion device or a direct comm port from your computer?
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Euro 1978 SC Targa, SSI's, Dansk 2/1, Bitz kit EFI.
Need a New Wiring Harness? PM or e-mail me. Search for "harnesses" in the classifieds.
Old 11-07-2019, 10:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #595 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2 View Post
Could be a communication error from laptop to ECU.
Are you using a usb conversion device or a direct comm port from your computer?
Itís the USB conversion that is sold by the tuner website diyautotune.com

Al has emailed a few things for me to try to see what tune is actually being run by the ECU.

Rutager
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 11-07-2019, 12:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #596 (permalink)
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My guess is that you pulled the "current tune" from the incorrect file path folder. Yes, there are demo tune files. You need to make sure you choose the path/tunerstudio/"your project"/current tune.

I always make sure to "save as" every tune file so that I Have a direct time/date stamp on each file. It is usually easy to match the last time stamp and day of tuning with the correct file.

Do you need a default Bitz tune file?

I would also make sure to specifically load your last tune file and verify it is 6 cylinder. I don't always trust the last file/current tune process in TS (or any other software for that matter).
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Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 11-07-2019, 12:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #597 (permalink)
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Hi Jamie,

Just did another start and then named the tune and log as ďdebugĒ as suggested by Al and then emailed them to him.

Yes, it might be a good idea to make sure I have the default 2.7 Bitz installed. I think I have it that way, but at this point everything is in question.

Thanks so much.

rutagerwest1(at)gmail(dot)com
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 11-07-2019, 02:49 PM
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I also stopped by Best Buy and bought a inexpensive Windows 10 computer so I can have both the Tuner Studio and the 123 distributor software on the same smaller laptop for just the car.

The 123 wouldnít load on my old XP, so I had to have two computers hooked up.
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Rutager West

1977 911S Targa Chocolate Brown
Old 11-07-2019, 02:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #599 (permalink)
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I just emailed a stock tune file. I suggest you run the compare tune function and see what is different compared to what is in the car.
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Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 11-07-2019, 03:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #600 (permalink)
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