It has been five months since I figured out the problem and I haven't had time to do anything about it. I have been kinda putting it off 'cos it was looking like an engine-out job to deal with the cam timing problem. I popped the engine cover today to have a look and I reckon it should be easy enough to get at the camshaft to change the timing with the engine in the car.
What do you reckon?

I’ve done my 1975 with the engine in the car. Of course a 1988 may be more complicated. Once the rear mount bar and exhaust is removed, there is room to work back there.

Seems like a compression test would be a lot less trouble than and engine drop? Won't fix an out of time cam, but would answer if it's time or not?

It is, but checking compression won't fix the cam timing problem!

I am trying to get my head around the best way to do this.

Basically, I guess I need to:

• disconnect one of the cams at the sprocket
• turn the engine 360*
• reset cam timing and lock it up

That should get the compression strokes back into sequence instead of thee lots of bangs per cycle for 1 & 4, 2 & 5 and 3 & 6.
Correct?

The positive thing is you can roll either side to match.
Bruce

Bill, You are correct.

Loosen the cam nut, pull the pin and let the sprocket rotate on the cam. put a witness mark on the cam nose to make sure it is not rotating. Then set timing on that side only.

It can be done in the car. Have to do a partial engine drop. Support engine on jack stands.
REmove muffler, rear engine tin, and cam chain cover. Also need to pull side engine tin. This makes it easy to see your dial gauge from below while timing cams.

Thanks. It looks like I have a project for next weekend.
There other things I can do while the engine is out, but I know if I take that route, it will be another six months before I finish it!

I get that. It should not take too long to complete. don't even really have to drain oil. You could probably do with the exhaust side valve cover on.

If you do have a cam timing issue you can do it in the car. BTDT. from memory I too had a cam 180 deg out.
But as stated, take the intake covers off and look at # 1&4 when at TDC. One should be slightly under tension and one should be slack - ie one should be opening for intake (by 1-2mm) and one should be closed for compression. if not , then you have a timing issue.
You can re time them in place. Obviously much easier with engine out.
Alan

YES
I finally got some time over the past couple of weeks to delve into the engine and fix the camshaft timing. It was incorrectly set so that the LH and RH cams were bringing #1 and #4 onto compression at the same time as we suspected. Basically, I disconnected the LH cam, rotated the engine one rev and reset timing. It now spins over on the starter as it should and tooth log looks normal and with no sync loss.

As Dennis identified, there was also a problem with the cam signal. I traced back through the wiring and found that two wires were wrong at the cam hall sensor connector, so I fixed that while I was in there.

After putting it all back together, it had spark and was on the verge of starting but still seemed to have an ignition timing problem. See video. After a bit of testing, fiddling and adjusting, I managed to get it to the point where it now won't fire at all!
Guys, I'd like your comments on the log files. They look OK to me. I think the red bars on the composite log are the cam sensor ... correct?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1520250184.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1520250226.jpg

The video needs a little explanation.
The blue LEDs are the spark outputs from MS3. The yellow LEDs are output signals to upper and lower COPs, so these always flash at the same time as the corresponding spark input.
The first part of the video is engine cranking, then there are a couple of runs in TunerStudio Output Test Mode.

<iframe width="480" height="270" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JJH320aDJlc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Link if embedded video doesn't work ...
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=JJH320aDJlc&feature=vm

The first 8 secs is engine cranking.
You can see that the LEDs don't flash in the correct timing sequence. In fact they flash in pairs 1/4, 2/5 and 3/6.
I can't imagine what would cause this.

Running the system in Output Test Mode, sparking is sequential, just as it should be.
At 35 secs you can see this. At 58 secs, I slowed it down even more so that you can clearly see the sparking sequence.

I have checked everything I can think of, but can't find what is causing the strange sparking pattern. I can't upload the msq file here but I am happy to email it to anyone who wants to check it for me. PM or email me with your email address.

Bill, I think this is why the car was running when you had the cam out of phase. The spark output looks like wasted spark running pairs of cylinders while cranking.

Can you double check your ignition output settings? The video on test mode shows "sequence" mode. The output test mode can be different than the actual ignition settings.

I am happy to review your file.

jamie dot novak at hotmail dot com

Jamie, it looks like during cranking, the ignition does wasted. Might be a flood mitigating strategy? Totally assuming, but the firing sequence is definitely different from starting to running modes.

In test mode, it appeared sequential.

Bill, are you sure your crank trigger settings are hitting #1 on time? Timing has been verified from the software to a timing light?

Ignition is definitely running sequentially in test mode. I even checked each single output for correct connection and spark ... all good.
It is only when cranking that the spark goes into wasted mode.
I am sure I sure that I must have set something wrong somewhere.

These are the current settings for Ignition Options.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1520292317.jpg

My guess is the MS does this to help the engine start faster. Motec does the same thing with the M1. If you watch an engine starting sequence, it will start while only being "360 synced" (waste spark) and then will reach "720 sync" (full sequential) when the engine is running, again to make the engine start faster and not have to wait for the cam twice (if using an non-missing tooth crank trigger) or missing tooth on crank and cam to know exactly where the engine is in the firing order.

What you are saying kinda makes sense, however the sparks aren't happening at the right time in the cycle so there is no firing happening. Not even back firing.

I thought maybe that fuel was the problem, but I have fuel pressure at the rails and the injectors all work in test mode. I even dropped some fuel down the intakes during cranking, but nothing happened.

I have had a few suggestions by email as well as comments here, but so far no real progress.
I spent most of today double-checking wiring and settings and didn't really make any progress.

When cranking, spark is still occurring in pairs (wasted?).
In test mode, ignition is sequential as per settings.
As well as observing the flashing of LEDs on my splitter box (as in video above), I removed the coils and plugs and confirmed that they are all actually firing at the same time as the LEDs.

I used a timing light to check timing of #1 and #4 and they are both within a degree of TDC (as per current cranking advance settings). I have played with this setting +/-20* with no effect.

Cam sensor wiring is definitely wrong. There is no signal, but it seems that this has always been the case. In the absence of a cam signal, it seems that MS3 defaults to wasted spark mode regardless of the Number of Coils setting. I have always had this set to "coil on plug" and Trigger Wheel Arrangement set to "dual wheel with missing tooth".
The installation instructions with the Clewett cam sensor don't identify the purpose of each of the three wires. It is four years ago when I first wired up this engine and I don't recall how I arrived at my wiring arrangement, but obviously it wasn't correct.
I will contact Clewett to clarify the correct wiring, but I am not getting too sidetracked on this because it isn't an issue if wasted spark is used.
I looked at a few YouTube videos on testing Hall sensors and I suspect that mine may not be working because my measurements don't seem correct.

Tooth #1 angle setting has always been 87*. I suspected that the change of cam timing might have necessitated a change to this, so I added 180* to see if it made a difference. It didn't.
Someone else suggested trying an extra 360*, so I tried that too, but no change. I Clutching at straws, I also tried adding 90* and 270*, but no hint of firing at any stage.

I have checked the fuel side of things. Output test mode confirms that all injectors are getting signals and operating sequentially. When cranking with the fuel pump on, I have fuel pressure (about 50psi) and I can smell fuel at the exhaust pipes.
Tipping a small amount of fuel down the intakes also doesn't induce any hint of firing.

Basically, no progress yet, so still looking for ideas.
Click on my username and email me if you want a copy of the tune file.

It used to run, you changed cam timing to correct orientation, and now it doesn't run?

Yes and no.
Straight after doing the cam timing, it was trying to run but it just couldn't seem to string enough bangs together to actually run. It was definitely firing, but there was a problem with the timing. Since then, I have successfully managed to get it to the point of no firing at all. :(

I have even gone back to previous tune files, but still no joy.
One thing I must check is the state of the plugs. Most of the cranking I have done for spark testing has been with the pump off, so I don't think they will be gummed up, but need to check them regardless.