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The Mighty Pieholio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adias View Post
What was that EXCESSIVE pressure? RPM dependent or not?
It has not been stated a gauge was observed that showed spiking.
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:07 PM
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Test and confirm..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by proporsche View Post
Bob..there is a possible problem .If the boys (at the rebuild place )switched the oil press relieve valves i could imagine some kind of problems...basically i would not go back to them..simple as that

Ivan


Submerge,

While the motor is still out, ask the shop to remove the engine thermostat and have it tested. The test to evaluate whether it is good or bad will take less than an hour of work. Without knowing the status or condition of the engine thermostat, everyone is guessing including the shop mechanic/s.

Insist to have the engine thermostat tested and evaluated before doing any additional work. For you know, it could be good and working. What happens next if the thermostat is good and working? Find another thing to blame for your oil cooler leak? And this is a good excuse for the shop not to know the root cause of the problem and keep the tab building up.

A defective thermostat (stuck closed) will cause some abnormal thermal build up and subsequently cause a significant drop in oil pressure reading due to oil viscosity (thinner). Good luck.

Tony
Old 10-07-2017, 01:30 PM
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Hi Tony..just to be honest , how many thermostats on 911 engine have you seen in your live go bad..Me nada..and you?;-)There is something fishy ..or?

Ivan
Old 10-07-2017, 01:37 PM
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Less than a dozen......

Quote:
Originally Posted by proporsche View Post
Hi Tony..just to be honest , how many thermostats on 911 engine have you seen in your live go bad..Me nada..and you?;-)There is something fishy ..or?

Ivan

Ivan,

A while back, my '78 SC suffered a thermostat failure during a track event and had to quit running to save the motor. Since then, I got interested and started doing some tests and experiments how to evaluate 911 thermostats. You can not have a good evaluation of a failing thermostat without putting it in an oil or water bath. A visual inspection is needed without one, you will be guessing. To answer your question, I have personally tested and found less than a half dozen defective thermostats in the course of my work. A precise count was 5 units. These 911 thermostats like other automotive-thermostats do fail too. They are durable and last very long but not exempt from failure.



I was able to save only the last three (3) engine thermostats from the engines I rebuilt over the years. After two (2) more engine rebuilds now and next year, time to quit. I can not retire because I have been retired from work 15 years ago. Wife likes to travel and spend more time with the grandchildren.

Tony

Last edited by boyt911sc; 10-07-2017 at 06:30 PM..
Old 10-07-2017, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
Ivan,

A while back, my '78 SC suffered a thermostat failure during a track event and had to quit running to save the motor. Since then, I got interested and started doing some tests and experiments how to evaluate 911 thermostats. You can not have a good evaluation of a failing thermostat without putting it in an oil or water bath. A visual inspection is needed without one, you will be guessing. To answer your question, I have personally tested and found less than a half dozen defective thermostats in the course of my work. A precise count was 5 units. These 911 thermostats like other automotive-thermostats do fail too. They are durable and last very long but not exempt from failure.



I was able to save only the last three (3) engine thermostats from the engines I rebuilt over the years. After two (2) more engine rebuilds now and next year, time to quit. I can not retire because I have been retired from work 15 years ago. Wife likes to travel and spend more time with the grandchildren.

Tony
This is also very interesting. He held the thermostat up and pointed out some wear marks as evidence of the thermostat potentially binding and not working. At that point I was happy to go spend $160 on a new thermostat and just eliminate the variable and move forward. It was two days later, after this thermostat and the replacement oil cooler where installed that they noticed the cam housing seals leaking. They had let the engine run for 30 minutes in the car, and then noticed the leaks. Then I received a call... engine came out again. X shop owner says, "Your cam tower is leaking, we have to pull the heads. Cam chain comes off and everything. When your old thermostat was binding it pushed all the oil into the cooler which was just boiling the oil and created a block in the system. That created all this pressure and blew out the seals in the cam tower."
I've been so busy I haven't been able to address specific and didn't want to get into an argument before the work was complete. I just asked him to give me an engine back that isn't leaking and to fix the issue. At which point he informed me that he was planning on the total labor nearing 20 hours.

Cam chain comes off to replace what seals in the cam housing? I haven't build a 911 yet and I'm so very much regretting not just talking the time to have done this on my own at this point.

I will have a lot more clarity this week.

Last edited by submerge; 10-07-2017 at 11:05 PM..
Old 10-07-2017, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kontak View Post
It has not been stated a gauge was observed that showed spiking.
I never noticed excessive pressure readings on the gauge. Which is not to say it never happened. I could have been distracted and not giving the gauges attention when this happened. I drive the car daily so in the 500 miles (2 months) since the rebuild there could have been a pressure build up I didn't notice. I'm a fairly serious monitor though, it would be shocking, but not impossible.
Old 10-07-2017, 11:00 PM
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Tony..interesting, are you talking about the thermostats in the oil lines?...yes i did experienced some of these go bad but on the engine,never did experienced that.
I know they work the same way as the inline thermostats and do know you have to test them in the water.Just the q was the thermostat which went bad for you was on the engine?

Ivan

Last edited by proporsche; 10-08-2017 at 02:48 AM..
Old 10-07-2017, 11:00 PM
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Engine rebuilder responsibility..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by submerge View Post
This is also very interesting. He held the thermostat up and pointed out some wear marks as evidence of the thermostat potentially binding and not working. At that point I was happy to go spend $160 on a new thermostat and just eliminate the variable and move forward. It was two days later, after this thermostat and the replacement oil cooler where installed that they noticed the cam housing seals leaking. They had let the engine run for 30 minutes in the car, and then noticed the leaks. Then I received a call... engine came out again. X shop owner says, "Your cam tower is leaking, we have to pull the heads. Cam chain comes off and everything. When your old thermostat was binding it pushed all the oil into the cooler which was just boiling the oil and created a block in the system. That created all this pressure and blew out the seals in the cam tower."
I've been so busy I haven't been able to address specific and didn't want to get into an argument before the work was complete. I just asked him to give me an engine back that isn't leaking and to fix the issue. At which point he informed me that he was planning on the total labor nearing 20 hours.

Cam chain comes off to replace what seals in the cam housing? I haven't build a 911 yet and I'm so very much regretting not just talking the time to have done this on my own at this point.

I will have a lot more clarity this week.


Submerge,

Your engine rebuilder is responsible for giving you a good running engine after a rebuild. Is this the same shop who did the rebuilt? Did you get any warranty for their work?

I am not a professional engine rebuilder but have done more than a dozen 3.0 engines as a pastime or hobby after my retirement. Why would you pay extra 20 hours to fix the problem after the engine rebuild? This should have not happened in the first place.

If the engine thermostat was defective and they used it, that's their negligence. The blame about your excessive oil pressure if this was real should have been detected before turning over the car to the owner. The oil leaks you are having now is the result of the quality of their workmanship. Of course, they will not admit it and would rather find something to blame. Whoever rebuilt your engine is responsible for the engine to run and perform acceptably. Oil leaks could be fixed and corrected before the car is handed back to the owner. Unfortunately, you have the misfortune of dealing with a questionable shop.

I would not be surprised if the shop finds more problem with the car. Your transmission might be next. Good luck.

Tony
Old 10-08-2017, 07:33 AM
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The more I read the more I think you're being hosed. No ill intentions just my thought. If your gauge isn't spiking then ther's no high oil pressure in your engine. You may have higher than normal back pressure in the case but that's it.

Good luck
Old 10-08-2017, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gomezoneill View Post
The more I read the more I think you're being hosed.
I am not convinced a failed engine thermo will cause excessive pressure. The diagrams posted indicate alternate paths.

The cooling fan is the coolest place in the oil circuit. It does not "boil oil" You got big fan blowing air through this thing. If oil was stuck it would be cool.

What is the heat source? It's a radiator not a cylinder head.

When your car radiator overheats, it ain't the radiator that boils the coolant.

I remember wear marks on my thermo. Sliding marks, not metal galling.
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Old 10-08-2017, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
Ivan,

A while back, my '78 SC suffered a thermostat failure during a track event and had to quit running to save the motor. Since then, I got interested and started doing some tests and experiments how to evaluate 911 thermostats. You can not have a good evaluation of a failing thermostat without putting it in an oil or water bath. A visual inspection is needed without one, you will be guessing. To answer your question, I have personally tested and found less than a half dozen defective thermostats in the course of my work. A precise count was 5 units. These 911 thermostats like other automotive-thermostats do fail too. They are durable and last very long but not exempt from failure.



I was able to save only the last three (3) engine thermostats from the engines I rebuilt over the years. After two (2) more engine rebuilds now and next year, time to quit. I can not retire because I have been retired from work 15 years ago. Wife likes to travel and spend more time with the grandchildren.

Tony
Hi Tony, thanks again for your sage advice on doing my engine drop with a missing lifting eye. Now I'm into cleanup, seals replacement and while you're in there stuff. No major disassembly of top or bottom end as compression numbers were good and engine running well prior to drop.

If it goes, thermostat is a bugger to get at with the engine in place, so am inclined to do it "while I'm in there". However my spouse has this project on a limited budget so I am trying to get best bang for the buck.

Based on your experience, do you recommend just replacing the thermostat? Or should I test (hot / boiling water) and reinstall with new seal if OK?

thx in advance, Brian
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:27 PM
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Engine thermostat removal......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Cameron View Post
Hi Tony, thanks again for your sage advice on doing my engine drop with a missing lifting eye. Now I'm into cleanup, seals replacement and while you're in there stuff. No major disassembly of top or bottom end as compression numbers were good and engine running well prior to drop.

If it goes, thermostat is a bugger to get at with the engine in place, so am inclined to do it "while I'm in there". However my spouse has this project on a limited budget so I am trying to get best bang for the buck.

Based on your experience, do you recommend just replacing the thermostat? Or should I test (hot / boiling water) and reinstall with new seal if OK?

thx in advance, Brian


Brian,

You can not install a new engine thermostat without pulling out the old thermostat from the motor. So the first thing you have to do is remove it whether you want to test it or replace it. After you have pulled it out, I would test it before buying a replacement thermostat. If is bad, you have a good reason to replace it. What if is still good and working?

It is a different story if you have a mechanic doing the work. The mechanicís time is expensive and sometimes cheaper just to replace some parts on the fly. But if you are doing the work itself, testing them will save you some money for parts.

Is the motor out already? With the engine out, it would take a few mins. to remove the engine thermostat and test it in a water bath @185įF~200įF. I donít install a used or old engine thermostat back into the engine without verifying it is good and working. Some of them open partially and not fully open during operation. You donít want to find out later that the thermostat is defective after you put the motor back in the car.

Tony
Old 01-03-2018, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
Brian,

You can not install a new engine thermostat without pulling out the old thermostat from the motor. So the first thing you have to do is remove it whether you want to test it or replace it. After you have pulled it out, I would test it before buying a replacement thermostat. If is bad, you have a good reason to replace it. What if is still good and working?

It is a different story if you have a mechanic doing the work. The mechanicís time is expensive and sometimes cheaper just to replace some parts on the fly. But if you are doing the work itself, testing them will save you some money for parts.

Is the motor out already? With the engine out, it would take a few mins. to remove the engine thermostat and test it in a water bath @185įF~200įF. I donít install a used or old engine thermostat back into the engine without verifying it is good and working. Some of them open partially and not fully open during operation. You donít want to find out later that the thermostat is defective after you put the motor back in the car.

Tony
Thanks Tony, yes engine is out and (thanks largely to you) mounted on the engine stand. Just me doing the work (at least so far) and I am cheap and dirty, as my wife likes to tell me.

I will definitely do the test as described, thanks for the info. If the thermostat still works will save me $$ that I can use to update other stuff.

You mentioned you found several that had gone bad, roughly what would you estimate your good to bad ratio has been for the rebuilds youíve done? Eg one bad in ten? In five? Twenty five?
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:53 PM
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So I checked for other posts by submerge and I don't think we found out what the resolution is on this?

The guys here are spot on with where the pressure goes and what the thermostat allows. A leaking oil cooler doesn't mean a pressure problem. But a thermostat stuck in the hot position could indeed cause the cooler to leak from either its core or maybe compromise the rubber seals where it attaches to the engine case. I have to respectfully disagree here with Bob that these seals do leak as they get hard with age, due to heat and oil reacting with the rubber, and can cause a leak for certain. I've seen it on a number of engines over the years. The leaking seals have really nothing to do with the integrity of the cooler itself. So I would hope your shop had the oil cooler pressure tested for leakage of the core instead of just replacing it because it showed a leak somewhere?!

Those oil diagrams are gold. You can see there's two points of pressure management interior to the engine for dealing with excess pressure. There's the bypass location, called a pressure relief valve in the two dimensional picture, which directs oil back to the inlet side of the pump. This is the vertical passage in the engine and the three dimensional picture does a nice job of showing this. The pressure manager other is the peak pressure location, called the safety valve in the two dimensional picture, which dumps oil into the bottom of the engine to be picked up by the sump screen. That's the horizontal passage in the engine shown by the three dimensional picture.

So the engine does a nice job of protecting itself from excess pressure. Even if the thermostat is stuck in the cold or hot position (it's always open and never actually closed) or somewhere in between, the oil has someplace to go. It's either going to the attached oil cooler or not (or partially) and therefore has somewhere to go.

Like stowsen914 and bpu699 said, if the t-stat is stuck in the hot position? The cooler is seeing cold, thick oil and that will increase pressure. But the aforementioned pressure management valves are still going to deal with that condition accordingly. That said, the cooler still is not going to like cold oil. It's job is to cool warm oil and should not be subjected to the increased pressure of flowing cold oil and that's what can compromise the cooler structure.

Plus, the job of the internal engine thermostat is to actually allow the engine to warm up to a desired temperature. If the cooler is active too soon, the engine may not reach that desired oil operating temperature. As an aside here, the operating oil temperature of around 210 F is entirely purposeful. Why? Because oil at that temperature can "burn" off moisture collected in the oil because water boils at 212 F.

Ivan brings up a good point about the potential of switching the location of the pressure relief springs. If the long spring is placed where the short spring goes, it takes a LOT more pressure to push that piston back and relieve the pressure. Can the long spring even be compressed that much to fit in the passage? I haven't tried it myself but I trust that Ivan's many many years of experience has let him encounter this mistake done by others?

The comment from the engine builder about the thermostat's behavior is just plain wrong. Hot oil due to the thermostat staying in the cold position is not going to "blow out" the cam seals. The pressure relief valves, installed properly, are going to deal with any sort of oil misdirection. There's all sorts of engines that people here on the forum have posted about high oil temperatures and the cam seals are not a resulting issue that occurs.

I bet the leaking cam seals was an installation error of those actual seals. They can be very touchy to install since they're just paper and easy to move out of place when you're setting the cam plate into the chain box. Plus it doesn't help that that neither the cam plate, nor the "snout" of the cam housing are very flat. So if the paper seal gets moved aside a tiny bit, it's very easy to have it leak. After seeing how NOT flat they were on one of my engine builds, after the fact when I experienced a leak from one of the paper seals, I now resurface those areas when doing at least a top end where the cam housing is coming off the engine anyway. I color the surfaces with a sharpie marker and wet sand them on a sheet of 400 grit paper atop a piece of glass or stone countertop until the color is gone.

Anyhow, I do recall one fella having an issue with his engine mounted thermostat pushing out of the case (yes, actually pulling the threads from the case) that was believed to be a overpressure problem. Yet it appears his issue was caused by the threads in the case being compromised from someone over-tightening the thermostat and that pulled the threads from the case, allowing the t-stat to pop out

Thermostat blown out of engine

Like Ivan said, it seems the engine thermostat has historically been much less problematic than the external thermostat in the right rear wheel housing. Which is odd, simply because they use the same style of regulator insert. burgermeister posted years ago how to rebuild the engine's internal t-stat by using the external t-stat regulator. He was dealing with high oil temps and found the engine t-stat to be the problem on his '88 Carrera (and had no leaking cam seals....... )

internal oil thermostat repair

and here's another instance of checking the engine thermostat where a number of guys with SCs indicated their engine thermostat was the source of trouble (temperature, not leaking cam seals........ )

SC runs hot 240 deg check internal thermostat operation with pics

I myself haven't seen a faulty engine t-stat. My experiences have been the external t-stat. One case was my personal, former '87 Carrera had the external t-stat stuck in the hot position and I could hear the oil gurgling in the lines along the passenger side of the car at every start up.

Sorry for the book-length post but I have an obsession with the oil system function on the 911 after blowing my own engine in the racecar and having to trace the system down to its basics in order to figure out why the engine went south. Turned out to be operator error and apparently a bad choice of oil filters- Canton non-bypass type. Lesson learned the very hard way!
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:24 AM
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Follow up and conclusion

Hi Guys!

Sorry for the delay on posting the resolution here....

Lets see, how to describe this the easiest.

What actually happened was that they didn't check the thermostat or the oil cooler when they did the rebuild. I know the oil cooler was already leaking before the project even got started. They assembled, it leaked immediately. The older tech is ridiculously stubborn and created this absurd scenario about the pressure before he considered he didn't take his time installing the cam seals. He told the owner this concept about 5 minutes before I walked into the shop and the owner just spouted the info straight to me. I heard it, I'm a reasonably capable mechanic, and was confused. I authorized the full job to repair, knowing that I was going to come back with a whole lot of questions before I paid.

I hit up the PELICAN COMMUNITY OF WISDOM and got such awesome feedback! The oil diagrams... oh the oil diagrams! That was like being dealt two pair and I was feeling pretty good about going into this argument coming out with a full house and all the chips.

I got the call that the car was done, downloaded the diagrams onto my phone and headed up to retrieve my car. I even recorded the whole conversation on my phone, but later decided not to share because that is just evil and sort of creepy.

By this time the owner had realized the pressure couldn't have caused the cam seals to leak and after about 1 minute of my questioning the idea with my newly fine tuned understanding of the oil system he told me that was a misunderstanding. He presented the idea that the thermostat was indeed checked and it must have failed unfortunately in those first miles I put on the engine after initially picking up the car. Regardless, the t-stat was stuck in hot and caused a leak in the cooler. I remain of the opinion the t-stat was stuck when I brought the engine in initially. They didn't test it, I already went and found a very nice pressure tested and cleaned replacement cooler and maybe it could have been resolved with seals only. Oh well.

At that point he stopped talking, as if to say he explained it and now we are all squared away. Of course his new story left the leaky cam seals only one option, incorrect installation. So, as soon I as mention this fact he aggressively comes back with "so what, your here to pick up your car and you not going to pay me?". A bit of name calling and hand gestures later, I did not pay another dollar. I've put about 700 miles on the engine since, including some overly aggressive hill climb runs up the crest highway here in socal, and I'm happy to report all issues have been resolved.

Thank you all so very much. Yes, I was able to confidently avoid some extra spending, but most of all I learned a great deal about the oil system on the engine and that is more important.

Very much appreciated.
Old 01-11-2018, 09:06 PM
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good for you ;-)

Ivan
Old 01-12-2018, 12:49 AM
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Great to hear it was resolved and you got it repaired at no additional cost. Great job standing your ground and demonstrating you knew how the system works. That's critical to showing them that the initial diagnosis of the problem wasn't correct.

So did the thermostat get replaced as well?
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:20 AM
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Great to hear it was resolved and you got it repaired at no additional cost. Great job standing your ground and demonstrating you knew how the system works. That's critical to showing them that the initial diagnosis of the problem wasn't correct.

So did the thermostat get replaced as well?


Yes, I bought a new thermostat and brought to them when I gave them the go ahead to complete everything.
Old 01-22-2018, 10:34 PM
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