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Quote:
Originally Posted by al lkosmal View Post
Your 911 is not your daily driver?...that combined with the obvious need to provoke response has you definitely leaning towards the D-bag orientation......
What are you talking about?
The overwhelming majority of us do not use our 911 as a daily driver.
This is why a 150,000 mile 911 is considered "high miles" despite being 30 years old.

The subject title reflects a true statement.
It is not my problem that you are so easily offended by reality.
Have you ever driven a modern car, or are you one of those people stuck in the mythical past?

I called a friend and asked him to compare his steering.
He said his wheel also has the same amount of movement while parked.

Since I got no other worthwhile feedback from the video above,
I will now go jack up the car and see if there is play at the tie rod ends.
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1986 3.2 911 coupe.

Last edited by sugarwood; 12-03-2017 at 07:02 AM..
Old 12-03-2017, 06:29 AM
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you must be really blind ,i have told you twice what to do ..................or even asked you some simple q. and you do not replay ,how do you want people to help you then????

Ivan
Old 12-03-2017, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarwood View Post
It was not clear to me how a video of him driving AX proves something is wrong with my car.
Then I noted that his own steering seems to have play while stopped.
That now means I have ADD?

In any case, I took some more video of the diagnosing.

Here is a video of the smuggler's u-joint.
I do not see any obvious slippage.

I also turned the steering wheel while in Park. Keys not in car.
Can the typical steering wheel move this much while in park ?
As soon as I start turning, the tires can be seen pivoting, so it's not "free play"
Can someone post a video for comparison?

Looking at this and your first video... I'm thinking there's something wrong with your rack.

I doubt it's the tie rods but it's worth checking them anyway.
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:51 AM
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Ivan,

I thought I did answer your question.
You asked me if there was play while parked.
I then posted a video of this.
You said there was "obvious noise", but did not elaborate.

I have not yet checked the #8 bolts.
That is not a simple quick diagnosis, since it's looks like inside of the steering rack.
Do I need to remove the steering rack to check #8 ? That might be above my ability.

For today, my next step is to located the other u-joint.
The one in the smuggler's box looked perfectly fine.
Then I will jack the car and inspect my 20k mile young Turbo Tie rods.
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1986 3.2 911 coupe.

Last edited by sugarwood; 12-03-2017 at 06:59 AM..
Old 12-03-2017, 06:52 AM
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very simple open the trunk remove the carpet.The lift you a/c fan lid .Then remove the paper cover and under you will see the second joint.
this is the paper cover..


and here

http://cdn4.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/101_Projects_Porsche_911/56-Bump_Steer_Kit/images_large/Pic2.JPG
Old 12-03-2017, 06:59 AM
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Ivan, I've already inspected and posted a video above of that u-joint in the smuggler's box.
I meant I am going to inspect the other one, once I find out where it is.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:04 AM
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it is up towards the steering .You have to remove the paper cover....on picture is the second and the first is hidden...i had the same play once and since i have replaced the upper joint ..perfect...also check the metal clamp .Inside is a rubber tube a like. And inside the tube is a bearing .Check for a play on the shaft with a screwdriver.

Ivan
Old 12-03-2017, 07:08 AM
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There are two universal joints in the steering column located in the front trunk. Failures of the double Cardan shaft are principally due to the wear of the actual universal joints; the needle bearings within the caps may have broken, or developed flat spots.

http://www.todaystrucking.com/images/rr_3272-2.pdf

These joints are not serviceable with a grease gun. I tried to service mine a while back, and ended up replacing them. That is documented Steering Column U-joints

What precisely do you mean by "park"? Do you have an automatic transmission? Or do you mean that the key is in the "off" position, such that the steering lock mechanism is engaged. I can say that in mine, I have removed the steering lock so that the wheel will turn when the key is in the off position. Thus I can also shut the car off and still have steering. If you turn your wheel right and left while the key is "on", do the tires move instantly, or is there a lag between action (steering input) and reaction (tire movement)?

In your video, the wheel is basically oscillating, right and left. There could be a number of causes for this. I would suspect that somewhere in the life of your car, you may have had a bent rim, or some other sort of non-catastrophic failure, which caused the steering column assembly to wear over time such that you have the present condition. You will need to troubleshoot it further.

BTW, if you want to get rid of that dump truck, I can be over this afternoon with cash.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:04 AM
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Ok, here is the video of the tie rod ends.
I did it with wheels on and off the ground.
I do not see any play. Can someone sign off on this?
I do hear some creaking, I think that was the rubber bellows.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patkeefe View Post
If you turn your wheel right and left while the key is "on", do the tires move instantly, or is there a lag between action (steering input) and reaction (tire movement)?
Right, this is what I did in the video from post #38
Yes, the tires moved the very instant the steering wheel was pushed.
I did not discern any notable lag.

Pat,
I read your thread last night when researching this.
The thread did not have any conclusion, however.
I do not like the idea of installing 40 year old parts from a salvaged 914/944/911, etc.
Did you replace both of them for $329/ea? Suncoast

Did you see my video of the single u-joint?
Does that look good or bad?
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1986 3.2 911 coupe.

Last edited by sugarwood; 12-03-2017 at 08:25 AM..
Old 12-03-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proporsche View Post
it is up towards the steering .You have to remove the paper cover....on picture is the second and the first is hidden...i had the same play once and since i have replaced the upper joint ..perfect...also check the metal clamp .Inside is a rubber tube a like. And inside the tube is a bearing .Check for a play on the shaft with a screwdriver.

Ivan
Ok, I see.
Thanks for clarifying that I was looking at the lower one.
I was looking under the dash for the first one.

I do not know how to remove the "paper" cover.
It is firmly in place, and do not want to break anything.
Is there a trick to removal of the cover?
Should I start to remove the heater hoses?

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1986 3.2 911 coupe.

Last edited by sugarwood; 12-03-2017 at 08:58 AM..
Old 12-03-2017, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarwood View Post

Did you see my video of the single u-joint?
Does that look good or bad?
I can't tell from the video. You have to take it loose from the rack and see how it feels. Are you sure you don't have a bent wheel or something like that? Is there any vibration when you drive, like in the first video.

40 YO parts are fine, if they have been stored for 35, and operate smoothly. I hate spending $300+ for a $10 U-joint. Who's to say that part hasn't been in a warehouse since 1982?
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:42 AM
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Let's think about the amount of play we see in your first video. Best guess is that the steering wheel movement translates to ~4-5 degrees of shaft play. That's easy to see at the steering wheel and not so easy to see when observing the steering shaft. It doesn't take much play at a tie-rod end to create that kind of movement either.

I don't see the play in the second video you post (the u-joint), but I think that's the lower u-joint near the rack. If possible, I would hold the side of the joint near the rack from rotating and then wiggle the wheel about the same amount as in your first video. See if you can feel any slop/clunk there. If not, u-joints are probably OK. (There is a second one between the joint in your video and the steering wheel.)

Regarding tie-rod ends, it doesn't take much wear to cause that kind of slop and it may not be visible. You'll need two people for this: Have somebody move the wheel while you've got a hand on the tie rod ends (check both at the wheel and at the rack). If those are worn, you'll feel the "clunk" as it changes position. Need to do this with the wheels resting on a ramp or something, otherwise it won't load the rod end.

If nothing there, then I would suspect worn steering rack or rack input coupling. The rack has to come out for both. It's not too hard to remove/clean-up/re-shim the rack.
Old 12-03-2017, 08:43 AM
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Pat,
Wait, I need to take apart the steering rack just to diagnose the u-joints ?

No, my wheels are not bent. But, I don't see how that would relate to steering slop.
A bent wheel would just cause vibration, but you could still have tight steering with a bent wheel and vibration.
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Last edited by sugarwood; 12-03-2017 at 08:59 AM..
Old 12-03-2017, 08:47 AM
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Oh, wait, you're saying that you need to take apart the steering rack just to diagnose the u-joints?
This project just got a lot more involved, and might be over my head.


Well, this is a technical forum. There are a lot of technical details being thrown about.
How do you know your wheels aren't bent? Did you check the runout with a dial indicator?

As mentioned above by fanaudical:
Regarding tie-rod ends, it doesn't take much wear to cause that kind of slop and it may not be visible. You'll need two people for this: Have somebody move the wheel while you've got a hand on the tie rod ends (check both at the wheel and at the rack). If those are worn, you'll feel the "clunk" as it changes position. Need to do this with the wheels resting on a ramp or something, otherwise it won't load the rod end.

If nothing there, then I would suspect worn steering rack or rack input coupling. The rack has to come out for both. It's not too hard to remove/clean-up/re-shim the rack.
This is a great troubleshooting procedure.

You have something wrong. You need to determine what it is. It is between the steering wheel and the front tires. It is not that many parts. It could be a fractional bit of wear in each of the parts, or just wear in some of the parts.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al lkosmal View Post
. . .

Your 911 is not your daily driver?...that combined with the obvious need to provoke response has you definitely leaning towards the D-bag orientation......

"A man with priorities so far out of whack doesn't deserve such a fine automobile."

that's just me...i could be wrong.

al
Those qualification standards would mean that 95+% of the people on this forum are "D-bag" oriented, and the number of them grows every day as they fret and whine about increasing values taking the fun out of driving their 911s.
Old 12-03-2017, 09:01 AM
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sugarwood..the best to locate play in the steering is..Car has to be on the ground not in the air..Then you turn or someone and you have to put your hand on the tie rod ends to feel any play in them.
To replace the joints you do not have to loose or remove the steering rack at all.
To check a play at the steering rack.Remove the bottom cover plate .You will se a cover on the st.rack with 2 13mm head bolts.Under is a little piston with shims sometimes (i have seen it when it is to dry the shims go kaput.
Also if you are going to remove it there is a spring so do not loose this one.Inside you can see the teeth from the rack

To remove the paper cover there are two clips which hold it it in place gently remove them .Also some air duck hoses have to be removed to completely remove this cover..not much work at all.

Ivan
Old 12-03-2017, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patkeefe View Post
How do you know your wheels aren't bent? Did you check the runout with a dial indicator?
Because there is no vibration. Just slop. Very different.

Just to clarify something, in that first video of me driving,
I was intentionally shaking the steering wheel back and forth.
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Last edited by sugarwood; 12-03-2017 at 09:16 AM..
Old 12-03-2017, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proporsche View Post
sugarwood..the best to locate play in the steering is..Car has to be on the ground not in the air..Then you turn or someone and you have to put your hand on the tie rod ends to feel any play in them.

To replace the joints you do not have to loose or remove the steering rack at all.

To check a play at the steering rack.Remove the bottom cover plate .You will se a cover on the st.rack with 2 13mm head bolts.Under is a little piston with shims sometimes (i have seen it when it is to dry the shims go kaput.
Also if you are going to remove it there is a spring so do not loose this one.Inside you can see the teeth from the rack

To remove the paper cover there are two clips which hold it it in place gently remove them .Also some air duck hoses have to be removed to completely remove this cover..not much work at all.

Ivan
Ok, I'll first remove the heater hoses and then locate the clips.
I have lost my helper for the day, so this project will need to wait until this evening.

In the meantime, I will do some reading about the steering rack troubleshooting.
I have no idea what worn steering rack or rack input coupling means yet.
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Old 12-03-2017, 09:15 AM
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what goes bad on steering rack are the side bearings.The shaft by itself hardly .It would have to be dry for a long time .The piston would be worn out.

Ivan
Old 12-03-2017, 09:19 AM
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