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911 carrera 3.2 (1985)
 
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Respect...


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Old 02-08-2018, 04:35 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #161 (permalink)
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I'm back! Putting the PAIN in PAINT!

I now officially no longer have fingerprints. And obviously it's not from typing!!

Now this is all a learning process for me, as I have never tried to produce paint results that were perfect. Lots of perfectly acceptable work but not show car standard. My wife has a black yamaha piano with a pretty well done finish. That's my target. So your results may vary, and your experience will be different, I'm just going over my trials and tribulations and maybe it will help someone avoid the same mistakes if they are looking for similar results.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'm a mediocre painter, at best, but I'm really good at sanding..... perhaps a little too good. As time went on I kept finding thin spots in the paint that revealed my lack of talent with a spray gun.

Also, lesson learned, I used a bit of wet on wet sealer, here and there, as a final step prior to painting, on the odd edge or high spot that came trhough on my final 600 grit sanding. Wet on wet sealer is not a great idea, if you have a super smooth, nicely sanded finish, then you spray a sealer on then paint on top of it, you are spraying colour on a slightly textured surface in those spots, and I swear every single spot (probably a half a dozen places) that I used the W.O.W. Sealer I ended up with it peeking through after just looking at the spot with sandpaper in my hand. Note to self, no more of that!!!

Not that long ago I posted about how I decided to pull the car into natural light, and MAN did it look good.





I guess I was trying to convince myself to leave it alone but it didn't work. 99% of people would touch up the spots and get on with building the car but I couldn't do it!!

So this happened.....



I decided I should go back to the drawing board. Turns out the paint store is on the way to the drawing board. The paint store is an expensive place, but they always seem happy to see me. Note that I buy nearly as much sandpaper as I do paint. So I am stuck in a never ending cycle of sand/paint/repeat that is good for their bottom line.

I had a few different problems with the paint (not including the aforementioned never to be repeated wet-on-wet sealer issues)

1. - My colour sanding process (the first time) was: dry with 1200 grit (dry was easier to see when I got all the glossy low spots out), then 1500 (wet), then 3000 (wet) then compound, then polish. I decided on these steps based on a bunch of research, testing, and prior experiences. I now know that doing this will get you paint that looks incredible. Really, really nice. In comparison it made our 2017 Golf R look like it was painted with a roller. BUT..... looking closely at reflections, there was still a waviness to the surface. Seems this is sometimes refered to as "urethane wave" but whatever it is I couldn't stand for it. I am 99% sure this is the lingering influence of the texture of the original surface. Because I used a DA sander (6" and 3") for the sanding I was careful to use a soft interface pad. Works for matching texture on collision work (and rust repair on beaters) and for getting rid of dust nibs but not the hot setup for truly outstanding paint.

2. Orange peel in places the sun don't shine. I have no intention of wet sanding and polishing my door jambs, but was unhappy with the spraying I did in these areas. I mentioned my lack of painting skill..... here's a pic of me sanding out the peel with a guide coat prior to repainting.....



Mind you the guide coat amplifies the texture (which is why it's so useful, more on that later!) this was actually a pretty nice finish, but not up to my expectations.

3. Uneven coverage - I had some thin spots and poor coverage in areas, especially some trick spots. Here's a particularly bad spot (after prep for paint part duex)



I also had some issues with coverage inside the drip rails. More on that (and my solution) later.

4. "Marring" from compounding - I was having difficulty getting a perfectly clear and smooth finish after the compounding step - I've since learned I was probably not careful enough with my pads, and should be cleaning them more often, and seasoning them better to make sure I am not introducing issues to the paint - I was getting defects that would be best described as microscopic peel - actually only visible if I have my reading glasses on BTW. Difficult to photograph.....

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87 Coupe - The Driver
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85 Coupe - The AX Beater
Old 02-13-2018, 03:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #162 (permalink)
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The problem with paint, part 2

Once I finally came to grips with the fact that I was going to have to re-paint the car, I started to think about what I could do to improve the experience (and the result). Lots of reading on the internet, and talking to my paint supplier, and even spraying out a test panel, revealed some room for improvement.

First off, when I masked the first time:





I didn't give it that much thought. It turns out my masking film was getting in the way a bit, when trying to spray around the window apertures. I did things slightly different this time:







Notice also, that I decided to paint the cowl and roof separately from the rear quarters. Like I said I'm not that great a painter, and due to my hokey-ass setup I tend to favor lower air pressures and higher transfer efficiency to keep the overspray to a minimum...... so making things easier for myself meant I could relax a bit, take more time, and slow things down a bit, less worry about bumping into stuff (done that), dripping sweat (been there) running out of paint in the cup, etc.

Finally, slowing down and carefully inspecting the spray job in front of me with LOTS OF LIGHT!! to make sure I had complete, even, wet, coats really helped. White paint is tough to spray, because it's so hard to see. But I was actually enjoying myself this time and not feeling stressed because the previous application never felt like it was gong that well.

As for the "split" at the rain gutter, this worked out really well, the gutter actually produces it's own soft edge over most of the length, and will only require a tiny bit of sanding/buffing to be an invisible division.

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87 Coupe - The Driver
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85 Coupe - The AX Beater
Old 02-13-2018, 03:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #163 (permalink)
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Let the guide coat be your guide.....

The first step before painting the second time was flattening the previous paint, and boy was that an eye opener. Once thing I was worried about was imparting some somef shape or textures or waves into the final surface, since I have so obsessively block sanded to this point I figured I better not stop now. It also occurred to me to use a guide coat to see where I was at. There we quite a few spots on the previous colour sanding effort that I left unsanded, or partially sanded, thinking they wouldn't be noticeable, or would be "good enough". Not so fast..... even the slightest imperfection and unsanded "peel" just screams at you. This is the point I vowed to never, ever, ever, sand anything, ever again, without a guide coat.









Somewhere along the way I discovered that 3M dry guide coat (which I used religiously during block sanding) is also great on paint! White, at least. Not sure what I'd do for a black car.......













Note that the above pics are somewhat out of order, because I painted the roof and quarters before prepping the hood for paint. So the pics of the fresh paint and guide coat and subsequent sanding on the quarter did actually happen before the final block sanding on the hood. Follow? LOL - I've learned to work from a list after losing track... did I wet sand the front bumper with 2000 grit?? Or 2500? Pretty tough to tell the difference - more on that later!
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87 Coupe - The Driver
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #164 (permalink)
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Blocks and more blocks, the harder the better.

In my previous post I commented on how revealing using a guide coat and a HARD block for sanding the paint flat was. This was life changing for me..... OK maybe that's a bit dramatic but it opened my eyes to a world of paint flaws, just waiting to be obliterated!!!

Here's a door that I thought was perfect:



That texture was left after 1200 dry with a DA, 1500 wet, and 3000 wet, all with a soft interface pad. So even though you can find people all over the internet saying that will flatten out peel and texture, it does, but only to a point. To get the paint truly flat, in preparation for finishing, requires a hard sanding block and good old wetordry paper.

Also, with the guide coat, you can sand precisely the right amount - not too much, not too little, even up to the edge of panels and details, and with the hard blocks, you can flatten the fat edges known as "picture framing" on panels.












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Old 02-13-2018, 04:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #165 (permalink)
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Finally, the process

So, to summarize, I THINK I have finally figured out the process that's going to work for me:

- Paint. Wait 48 hours (pretty cool in my shop, 15-20 degrees C.)

- Wet sand 1000 Grit, with guide coat and hard sanding block, to remove texture, dust, trash, insects, small animals. Wait 24-48 hours.

- Wet sand 1200 grit, with guide coat and hard sanding blocks, to remove remaining texture (note - I believe this texture might have re-appeared after the paint is "opened up" after the 1000 grit step) also removes 1000 grit scratches, which the guide coat ensures. Wait 24-48 hours.

- Wet sand 1500 grit, with guide coat and hard blocks, same as above. Texture is slight, if at all, and this step is mainly refining 1200 scratches. Wait 24-48 hrs.

- Wet sand 2000 grit, with guide coat, at this step I was no longer seeing texture at all and softened up the blocks a bit, especially on compound curves, etc.

- Wet sand 2500 grit, with guide coat, softer blocks.

- Damp sand 3000 grit trizact by hand on details, 6 inch DA on large areas, 3 in DA on smaller arears. No guide coat required, just have to ensure complete coverage with several passes. Low speed, low pressure, not too much water, and CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN everything as you go, in particular flushing off the pad continuously and removing the slurry from the panel. If you do this the sanding pads (which are not cheap!!!) will last much longer and do the job they are supposed to do. One wrong move and the pad is toast but the temptation will be to keep using it Take it from me.. Don't kid yourself, toss it and start over with a new one.

- Damp sand 5000 grit trizact same as above.

I'll be honest - this is a work in progress and subject to revision - I know it looks like a lot of steps, but I have learned that you can't skip steps. Removing 1000 grit scratches with 1500 is tough. With 1200 it's easy and quick. The guide coat doesn't lie!!! They say you can go to 3000 from 1500 but I don't buy it. Comparing the 3000 results when skipping 2000/2500 to doing every step is like night and day. Again, each step should be quick and easy.

Somewhat random pics:














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Old 02-13-2018, 05:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #166 (permalink)
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Great work, Jonny. You are a continuing inspiration.
Thanks for posting,
Dave
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #167 (permalink)
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5000 grit results

Here is the hood, after going through all of the steps above. It has not been polished, but in seeing it in person you would think it had been.





It's impossible to photograph, but looking up close (yes with my reading glasses and a "sun" light) the surface of the paint is breathtaking. There are absolutely ZERO visible sanding scratches. The beauty of the steps and not making huge leaps in grit size, there are no remaining artifacts from earlier steps. Each subsequent step easily wipes out the preceding scratches, and the guide coat ensures that they are completely and precisely removed from the entire panel evenly, right to the very edges. My previous efforts always seemed to have a certain number of leftover scratches that I would hope would compound out, of they just ended up getting polished and weren't that noticeable. This process is easy and actually fun, as it takes the guesswork out of it and you don't feel like you are fighting with the paint or hoping and guessing as you go.

I am pretty sure, with this process, I can skip compounding and all the pitfalls associated with it and go right to polishing. I have a few panels left to go with 2500 and then the whole car other than the hood has to be done with 3K and 5K.
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Last edited by Jonny042; 02-13-2018 at 05:19 PM..
Old 02-13-2018, 05:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #168 (permalink)
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Paint fumes have gone to my head

Just want to mention - yes, I am very proud of the work I'm doing, and it's fun to share it, of course. But I don't want to come off as braggy or show-offish. I'm really enjoying the process, and have a bit of downtime in my hotel room tonight. Hence the barrage of posts and pics!

Enjoy, and cheers!

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Old 02-13-2018, 05:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #169 (permalink)
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This is really impressive, as you have amazing patience. The results will reward all of your hard work. Congratulations.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #170 (permalink)
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I can’t believe how much patience you have. A real virtue that’s for sure. Nice work. Thx for posting.
Old 02-13-2018, 07:29 PM
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Excellent work!
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #172 (permalink)
 
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Always knew a good paint job was not easy to achieve but never realized there were so many steps required to get there. Thanks for taking the time to post - very enjoyable read!

BTW - you don't come off as braggy at all - in fact, you're too humble!
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #173 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911T70 View Post
Always knew a good paint job was not easy to achieve but never realized there were so many steps required to get there. Thanks for taking the time to post - very enjoyable read!

BTW - you don't come off as braggy at all - in fact, you're too humble!
Thanks!! I read a funny quote somewhere - "It's not custom paint, it's custom sanding". I found a few examples online of others doing a similar process, here's one article from Hot Rod Magazine (which I've been reading since I was 12 years old!) which recommends starting with 600 grit!

Secrets To Perfect Paint - Hot Rod Network

It would be a lot easier if I had a spray booth, and some talent (and more practice) with the gun, but in the end if you are willing to take the time to sand it right, you could probably paint with a pump-up garden sprayer and get a good final product!
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:42 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #174 (permalink)
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I mentioned that dry guide coat changed my life........it really did.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Dry-Guide-Coat/?N=5002385+3293223475&rt=rud

The powdered guide coat seems to get into the sanding scratches and stick there - I don't know how fine you can go but I found it to be effective even when sanding 3000 grit so it must be made of varying sizes of granules. It's neat how it wipes on dry but then won't wash off.

Anyhow, I've been haunted by the fact that they only make it in dark grey but a search shows that 3M makes it in bright orange, and a company called Mirka has it in black, and white. I'll have to get some and give it a try on my black "practice" car...
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:48 AM
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I happen to have an appreciation for how difficult painting can be. I used to work in the wind tunnels of the National Research Council, developing a pressure measurement technique using special, fluorescent paints (Pressure Sensitive Paint). We would spray these paints on wind tunnel models, needing to achieve near-perfect finishes as to not disturb the air-flow. We had such a hard time with fish eyes, orange peel, gun settings, etc... that we brought in a professional aerospace painter from the Flight Research Lab to train us. Even after many days of training, only one of the team of three guys could get the hang of it, but it was always a real struggle. So much respect for the results you're getting!

If you haven't seen this, you might find it interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BV0PMYfc3o
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #176 (permalink)
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It's been a while since I did much painting but I did learn a few things.

Us a good quality single stage paint.

Do three wet coats with a mist coat on the third if needed.

I found that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to paint over a surface the had two different kinds of paint under neath. Such as original paint with an area of primer with out it showing through. NEVER use any LACQUER products.

I know the pros use a sealer. I was never able to get good results using one of those.

If all of the paint from the metal up is good and compatible to the color you are putting on, you really can't go wrong. You will be able to buff out any imperfections in your spray job.

Use some "Smoothie" in your paint and you won't get fisheyes.

Oh, and the weather can cause problems too.......
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Last edited by Trackrash; 02-14-2018 at 11:06 AM..
Old 02-14-2018, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911T70 View Post
I happen to have an appreciation for how difficult painting can be. I used to work in the wind tunnels of the National Research Council, developing a pressure measurement technique using special, fluorescent paints (Pressure Sensitive Paint). We would spray these paints on wind tunnel models, needing to achieve near-perfect finishes as to not disturb the air-flow. We had such a hard time with fish eyes, orange peel, gun settings, etc... that we brought in a professional aerospace painter from the Flight Research Lab to train us. Even after many days of training, only one of the team of three guys could get the hang of it, but it was always a real struggle. So much respect for the results you're getting!

If you haven't seen this, you might find it interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BV0PMYfc3o
I had seen that before, and found it very interesting, but it was a while ago. I thought I'd watch it again, and knowing what I now know...... yeah that is pretty insane but not in a good way!!! I hate to bust Larry's bubble as he is obviously enthusiastic about the restoration, but as shiny as the paint is, they made the same mistake I made on my car the first time - they didn't properly flatten the paint prior to polish and it's still wavy:



If you look at the reflections of the fluorescent lights in the paint, they aren't straight. They reflection is clear, indicating a great polishing job, but the surface is distorting the reflections. If you focus on the reflections and watch the video there is a barber pole effect from the waviness of the paint surface.

In case you aren't convinced:



Check the reflections of the overhead lines. That's worse than mine ever was. Back to the paint booth for that car!!!

To be fair, a lot of work went into that car, and it shows in the results. I am sure it's far better than 99.9% of the repaints out there. Sharpening to a finer point takes an exponential amount of time and money, and I can't imagine what it would cost to add four or five more steps, by hand, to the job. $10K? $20K? Word in the youtube comments section of the video it was a $70K paint job already!
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85 Coupe - The AX Beater

Last edited by Jonny042; 02-14-2018 at 04:49 PM..
Old 02-14-2018, 04:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #178 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911T70 View Post
Always knew a good paint job was not easy to achieve but never realized there were so many steps required to get there. Thanks for taking the time to post - very enjoyable read!

BTW - you don't come off as braggy at all - in fact, you're too humble!
Except this really isn't a good paint job. It's a fantastic paint job!
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:28 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #179 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackrash View Post
It's been a while since I did much painting but I did learn a few things.

Us a good quality single stage paint.

Do three wet coats with a mist coat on the third if needed.

I found that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to paint over a surface the had two different kinds of paint under neath. Such as original paint with an area of primer with out it showing through. NEVER use any LACQUER products.

I know the pros use a sealer. I was never able to get good results using one of those.

If all of the paint from the metal up is good and compatible to the color you are putting on, you really can't go wrong. You will be able to buff out any imperfections in your spray job.

Use some "Smoothie" in your paint and you won't get fisheyes.

Oh, and the weather can cause problems too.......
Amen to all of that!!! Except the fisheye eliminator. I've sworn off anything silicone for quite some time and haven't had any problems. It helps that my shop is mostly dedicated to the 911s and I do my car care elswhere. I did have bit of trouble with water in my air supply but got that solved.
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85 Coupe - The AX Beater
Old 02-14-2018, 04:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #180 (permalink)
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