Early 911 Fuel Pumps and Regulators?

[Fleming]

Here are some of the early 911 Weber fuel pumps and a pressure regulator.

The Bendix is a points, interrupter pump, noisey and can be heard from the drivers seat. It pumps faster until pressure is met them slows to a tat-tat-tat, when pressure is up it is quiet. Anyone know the pressure range for this? Is there a source for points, internal fliter and diaphragm's?




This Hardy is a points, interupter pump, about as noisey as the Bendix. Pump speed (noise) varies from fast to a slower tat-tat-tat, can be heard from outside the car. Does anyone know the pressure range for the Hardy? Pelican has a Hardy for $122. Is it the same one?


Facet is a solid state pump. This one is louder than both the Bendix and the Hardy. Seems to run faster and seldom slows to a slow tat-tat-tat. Presure range is 4 to 7 psi. Pep Boys price less than $40.



The pressure regulator sourced from the local parts store has had CR Industries Pro-Fuel and more recently Purolator Pro-Fuel names on them. Can be set from less than 1 up to 5.5 psi.


PMO is selling a Pierberg Pump. Anyone know what they look like, if they are a points or a solid state pump and what the pressure range is for them? How noisey?

PMO sells a regulator but don't see any info on it?

Pelican is selling a Rotory pump $94. Anyone have pix's and spec's.

I have located a Facet Cylindrical (newer technology-no points) that looks like the Bendix. Silver Top 4 to 5 psi, Blue Top 6.4 to 7.5 psi. Anyone use this?

Are there any alternatives to these? Holly, etc?

Bob

[araine901]

I use a holly Blue with the Holly regulator. I alos have an in line gage at the "T" so I can see exactly what the pressure is. Its a loud pump. Must be mounted with insulator mounts or you will FEEL it when its on.

[304065]

If I were replacing the old Bendix pump points, etc., I'd use the core from a new one in the old shell (or get a replica decal).

It's a cool sound when it comes on- fast thumps at first, then slow.

[silverc4s]

Some information from my personal experiences.

The Hardi pump is crap, don't waste your money, unless you are going for PCA concours level equipment.

That Facet pump in your picture is the SS501, rated at something like 2.5 -3.0 psi and 12 gph, which is not adequate for the webers.
The Purolator regulator is a very flow-limiting design, and is a fire hazard as well, I would NOT have one in any vehicle I own again, ever.

The Holley blue pump & Holley regulator are the best solution for webers, IMO.

[jond911]

Silver C4S...

Unfortunately for me.... I'm running one of those facet pumps and the "fire hazard regulator".....carbs pop alot at speed on the highway. Can one utilize the Holley equipment on a 911 with no fuel return line? My return line was capped off a while back. Where are the optimal places to mount the Holley equipment? Any pictures, Holley part numbers, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Scared to drive now!

Thanks!

[silverc4s]

Here is what Pelican offers, you should phone in and get the details of these items:

Carburetor Fuel Pump and Fuel Pressure Regulator
This rotary style pump is just the ticket when changing over to carburetors on your 911 or updating your 912. It offers both quiet operation and longevity. Don't forget to install a fuel pressure regulator, to be sure that you're getting the proper and consistent fuel pressure to your carburetors.

Rotary Fuel Pump, 12v
PEL-WP99009-131 $96.60

Fuel Pressure Regulator
PEL-WP31800-063 $73.05

I do not think these are the Holley, but more like the Bendix pump you show above. I will try to get you a link to the Holley Stuff, I have it here someplace.

[silverc4s]

Selector guide from the holley site, www.holley.com

Features
New tumble polished billet look.
Improved design for street/strip applications.
Distinctive "RED" logo.
Flows 97 GPH (free flow).
Flows 71 GPH at 4 PSI.
Maximum pressure is 7 PSI.
Regulator is not required.
Motor draws only 2 Amps current.
7-1/2 Amp fuse recommended.
Provides constant fuel flow with no pulsation.
Has externally accessible pressure relief valve (max. 7 PSI).
Rotor/Vane pump design is more tolerant of contaminated fuels.
New lower housing casting for enhanced fuel flow and quieter operation.
Weighs only 2.88 lbs.
Includes mounting bracket.
Repair kits are readily available.
Can be serviced from either pump end or brush cap end.
NOT compatible with alcohol or methanol fuels.
Use of safety shut-off switch, P/N 12-810, strongly recommended.
Not designed or recommended for use with fuel injection systems.



P/N FREE FLOW
RATE FLOW RATE MAXIMUM
PRESSURE REGULATOR
REQUIRED
12-801-1 97 GPH 71 GPH @ 4 PSI 7 PSI No
12-802-1 110 GPH 88 GPH @ 9 PSI 14 PSI (included)
12-815-1 140 GPH 120 GPH @ 9 PSI 14 PSI Yes
12-705-1 180 GPH 176 GPH @ 9 PSI 15 PSI Yes
12-706-1 275 GPH 273 GPH @ 9 PSI 15 PSI Yes
12-708 375 GPH 294 GPH @ 18 PSI 42 PSI Yes
12-709 525 GPH 456 GPH @ 18 PSI 58 PSI Yes

Holley LINK>http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/FMS/FMSFP/12-801-1.html

[silverc4s]

Jon,
In answer to your mounting question, i would mount the pump up front, under the plate that hides the steering mechanism. It's pretty easy to build a mount if you don't have it there already, and these pumps PUSH much better than they PULL. The regulator and maybe a small pressure gauge can be mounted to a fuel block in the middle rear between your carbs.
Use all new fuel line, and check out PMO's sexy replacement fittings for the 4 banjos on your two carbs.

[araine901]

here is my holly set up. I suppose you could use it w/o a return line. I moved all of my stuff up to the smugglers box. Fuel pumps push better than pull, at least that is what I was told.

[ttweed]

Originally posted by silverc4s
That Facet pump in your picture is the SS501, rated at something like 2.5 -3.0 psi and 12 gph, which is not adequate for the webers.

Can you see a model number in that picture? There are several of the Facet solid state cube pumps, you know. My Facet pump looks just like that, and it is rated at 4-6 psi with a flow rate of 15 GPH @ 3 psi. It has worked well supplying fuel to my Weber 40IDS3C carbs on my 2.0 911S for 15 years or so, without any regulator needed at all. See the Pegasus Catalog page here. I use the #1103. Works fine. I carry a spare just in case, as some people think their longevity sucks.

It definitely changes tone once it primes with fuel from the tank. The clicking is loud and then gets more muted, but doesn't change cadence.

TT

[silverc4s]

Tom,
No, I could not see the part number on jon's pump, but that is the low pressure version sold for these carbs. the 4 to 6 psi pump you are using has a higher flow spec (barely) but it is not specified to run at the 2.5 to 3 psi the webers are supposed to see.
Either way, I think it is marginal in the application of a Porsche 6 with 2 3 throat webers. Yours may do fine, but it could be that you would see some improvement in performance in some areas with a pump that is a better fit for the application.
BTW, what are you using for a regulator??
Best Regards,

[Allenk]

So the holley set up uses a return line? I would like to go back to a return line set-up.

[ttweed]

Originally posted by silverc4s
...it is not specified to run at the 2.5 to 3 psi the webers are supposed to see.

I have always thought 3.5-4.5 is the correct range for the Webers. Mine produces a constant 4 psi without regulation (measured with a gauge after the filter but before the carbs) and plenty of flow (but there is no return line on the early 2.0 SWB fuel system.)

Yours may do fine, but it could be that you would see some improvement in performance in some areas with a pump that is a better fit for the application.

The car runs like a scalded dog, dynos at 130HP at the rear wheels with over 80K miles on the engine, and regularly beats most all of the newer models up thru the 996 Carrera and Boxster S at out PCA Zone 8 autocrosses, so any improvement in performance from the fuel pump would be an eye-opener.

TT

[Fleming]

Holy smoke, Boy am I feeling lucky. I didn't realize I've been running with such inferior pumps and regulators these past years.

An original bendix ran until about 120,000 miles, by then the carbs were changed from Solex to Webers and the dual mechanical pump had been removed from the system.

The Purolator regulator puked a diaphragm after only 16 years. it had a substantial drip that could have been very damaging but was cought early. It's replacement has been in there about 3 years.

A succession of Hardy's with each running about 60,000 miles gave warning of pending doom when the car would stall from a constant speed and the pumps wouldn't make any noise at the next attempt to start, a hammertize or cleaning the points would coax them to pump a few minutes/hours longer.

That Facet has about 10,000 miles but it's bothering me with it's damp bottom and loud noise.

It sure is good to get other opinions on this and beter hardware. Thanks guys.
Bob

[silverc4s]

Well, all I can say is - everyone's free to use whatever parts they feel are the best for the application & the $$ involved.
In my case, my webers never ran well with a Hardi pump, and were not much better with the Facet.
The purolator filter "puked a diagphram" on me while on a brisk backroad drive one fine Sunday morning all alone. When I stopped to see what everyone was waving at me about in a service station, the entire rear driver's quarter panel and that side of the engine compartment were covered with raw gas. Pretty scary sight, when you are watching it steam off your head, and thinking about spark plug wires etc...
I managed to NOT burn my car to the ground that day, got home with my hands shaking, and promptly rebuilt my entire fuel system, moved the pump up front, replaced all hoses, got the PMO banjo adaptors, etc.
So I won't be buying any purolator regulators anytime soon. But your mileage may vary, of course...

[kucharskimb]

fleming asked if i could save some info here for reference. schematic is a little sloppy, but it serves its purpose.

highlights: Carter P4070 pump, Holley regulator, PMO style gauge/splitter assy, return line.

I hung the carter pump in the smugglers box for 3 reasons: the thing is heavy, it is the size of a progresso soup can, and i was trying to make the pump push, instead of pull fuel.

i went with the carter because of its reliability and quiet operation. in the past, i have used mallory, holley and facet pumps. mallory and holley have a loud whine. the clicking of the facet drove me crazy. comparably, the carter makes 1/4-1/3 the noise of the others.

the holley regulator is mounted to the forward firewall, as is the PMO splitter.

The splitter is home-made with parts from an industrial supply shop. found everything in the brass fitting section. with the return line, i had to insert a restrictor (plug with a 1/16" hole drilled thru). without the restrictor, the pressure fluctuated all over the place. the actual PMO model comes with a clamp that goes over the return line and compresses it. that didn't work either...

i think the schematic and pics explain what is going on...

[304065]

OK, so I have been going through the fuel system on my '66 911. Here are a few thoughts. Fuel is combustible and carcinogenic so exercise extreme caution when working around it.

First, I have the Facet pump. It pumps about 5 psi free. The pundits who say "a fuel pressure regualtor is not required" are incorrect, you want to have about 3.5 psi with Webers for the correct float level and to avoid beating up the needle valve.

So for TESTING purposes I obtained a flying-saucer like fuel pressure regulator (this is NOT the fire-hazard purolator type, it is made in Italy and has been in production for decades, is pictured in the CB racing Weber book) which would allow me to set the level.

Also, a proper gauge was needed. I can't stand 1-1/8" "Peanut" gauges, they are inaccurate and the scale is hard to read. So I got a 2-1/4" gauge made in Switzerland by WIKA. The scale is 0-5 PSI and the accuracy is 1 per cent. These gauges are most accurate in the center of the scale, which is right where I want to measure. The only drawback is the pressure port is 1/4" NPT, which required a larger brass tee fitting and a pair of barb fittings to mount the gauge inline.

Finally, my fuel pump was getting corroded, so I took the opportunity to strip it down and repaint it in silver. The paint is not strictly correct, the original was silver cad, but it's close enough for now until an original pump can be obtained.

The fittings on this Facet pump, as I mentioned, are 1/8" NPT. That means they are a tapered thread with an approximate inside diameter of .125. This is incompatible with the original Cohline banjo fittings, which size I am not sure of. The MFI fittings are 12mm, would someone be kind enough to measure their original fittings? I am thinking that the larger Facet pump with 1/4" NPT outlets can be tapped for a straight thread and the face of the pipe surfaced to seal against the banjo.

Somebody told me that a Hardi pump was original for a '66 with carbs, can this be correct?

Note also the original fuel line with correct blue tracer. New clamps are on the way.



The results of all this are that with the correct fuel pressure the float levels are between the lines on the upper meniscus of the PMO float gauge. AFR testing can now proceed.

[rgrimm]

I had sucked a deteriorating gas tank screen into the supply line and, not realizing it had happened, went through a several "original-style" pumps in short order. While pumps may like to push rather than pull, they really don't like to pull through obstsructions!. The last Facet I purchased began overheating and failing in less than a month!

Knowing this wasn't right, I bailed and limped it to the shop. My wrench installed a Beck/Arnley, picked up at one of the local auto parts stores. It's a 4 psi pump, so doesn't require a regulator. Replaceable filter element built in to the bottom/supply of the pump. It was done in 2001 and it's run like a top ever since.

Of course, it may not impress a concours judge.

[Websurferdude]

1969 911 T with weber's. I just replaced the Hardi Fuel pump with a new Hardi Fuel pump, ( the old one was 17 years old and getting tired. The system never had a Fuel Pressure regulator. The new pump floods the Weber's, do I need a Fuel pressure regulator, if so what one? HELP.

[rw7810]

I thought if the carb floats are working properly, pressure would have an affect on flooding.....