3.6L conversions and CA smog laws (C.A.R.B)
 

Hi fellow 911 lovers,

I am looking for first hand experience during 3.6L upgrades in older 911s. 964 or 993 conversions. Any experience with a Vram conversion running a European OBD1 DME or a modified 95 ECU is especially interesting.

Is it possible to get these engines in a 911SC approved by C.A.R.B ?

Thanks for any help or advice.

I think technically in CA you can legally put in a later motor AS LONG AS it retains the later motor's emissions systems in their entirety. Many people have done this.

Others have done the swap and relied on the inexperience of the smog shops and passed smog anyways without any paperwork whatsoever.......YMMV

From what I understand of the CA smog laws, you are not allowed to swap engines of different year vehicles. You are only allowed to swap engines of the same year.
Modified cars using OBD II will be recognized by the smog computer and can cause an immediate failure of the test due to the modification.
If your car is an older 911 then most CA smog techs will not recognize the exact type of motor you have installed.

That is not correct. Like Catorce said it must be newer than your chassis (federal law actually) and retain all smog devices. Then you go in front of a BAR ref and get certified. OBD-II will be tested if it is 96 or newer, making a 964 or early 993 engine more desireable. They will check engine serial number. They know how to read a serial number decoder.

For people dead set on going further there is a technically illegal option. Once you have a BAR conversion sticker smog techs tend to get less strict. So often a guy will install some headers or efi once they get the sticker and if the tail pipe is clean they don’t care. But you could get called on it and failed. Not all techs turn a blind eye or take bribes.

^^^ Not Correct Targa.
You cannot perform and engine swap on a vehicle unless it is at least 7 years old or older. The donor engine has to be the same year or newer as the vehicle. And all of the emissions systems, including CAT converters, in their original configuration have to be installed from the donor vehicle.
So I can put a 2017 Camaro Engine in my 1996 Mustang as long as all of the 2017 emissions regulated parts are installed too.

So to answer the OP, Yes you can.
Perform the swap, make an appointment with the BAR and take the car to the Referee station. They will inspect, run an emissions test and install a special sticker that will allow you to get an emissions test at any SMOG check station, and allow you to legally sell the car, from that point forward.


Edit. Matt beat me to it... Again :D

My question really is about the written requirements and what actually is allowed. If CARB is really requiring ALL the emission stuff are these conversion including the info system and the OBD connector? My research suggests this is very tough to do? Is there anyone out there with a Patrick motorsports, Instant G, or DIY setup who has solved this problem?

Matt

Yes, they require it all. Back when I lived in CA and we were doing this on Subarus and Hondas they were very particular about all of it. We used to rewire the whole car. They have a check list and emissions diagrams like you see under the hood. Meeting with a ref can take several hours and it is not uncommon to have to go see them 2-3 times after they give you repair orders.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I still am looking for someone with a 993 conversion who actually has done this. I am staring to wonder if I am on a snipe hunt

Register it in Nevada. CA is brutal with these counter productive rules. I don’t have experience with your particular swap but I have done a gas to diesel swap on a land cruiser. Pretty straight forward on 97 and older. Was considering a new gas motor but gave up after I heard about all the hassle they put you through. Good luck on the hunt for info, I’m very interested myself.

My truck is a 97 Dodge Cummins. Everything Cummins is great. Everything Dogge has been replaced with after market part but that is a discussion for a different forum.

Hopefully someone has done this in California.

For what it is worth, I put a 1990 964 motor in my 1984 Carrera. Instant G harness. 964 heater boxes and cat. Wired and labelled the fog light switch on the dash as a Check Engine Light. Passed BAR in San Diego in one try. Then went to CHP for a new VIN with no problem.

Thanks for you feedback. I now have 1 data point. Still looking for more firsthand experiences.

If you plan on doing a legal conversion why not just talk to your local BAR. They should be able to lay out exactly what you may or may not do. Their firsthand experience is better than most responses you will get here. Then talk to Instant-G and/or Patrick Motorsport about what might have to be modified/removed for the motor you have selected. Why go ahead with the conversion never being sure whether or not it will pass.

I have a 1982 SC coupe that I am considering doing the same engine swap on. I have spoken with Instant G specifically about the CA emissions requirements for an M64 motor in a CA car. You do keep all the original exhaust system. I plan to contact the local BAR and discuss the issue. As an aside, I am rethinking this plan because several people I've spoken to have advised me to just rebuild the 3L SC engine into a 3.4L (with M64 crank and cams) as that will get me more of the engine I want for my hot rod. One knowledgeable guy said an M64 "is like putting a V-8 in the car". fast but not that fun! I believe Jack Olsen has an M64 in his 1972 911 which he both tracks and drives on the street.........greg

Have you seen this thread? It might be worth contacting Mark to discuss.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/982619-converting-race-car-back-street-hot-rod.html

I would stay with an OBD 1 motor. Seems the exhaust will be the biggest obstacle.

Gordon, thanks for the tip. I just sent Mark a msg asking about a 993 engine swap. I'll be interested to hear what he has to say. Thank you, Greg

You cannot utilize the original 964 exhaust heat exchangers and cross over tube as it will interfere with the clutch mechanism on a 915 transmission. A set of '84-'89 Carrera heat exchangers, cat and muffler however will work.

Ok thanks for that information. Is your 80SC 3.6 transplant street and smog legal? any advice for someone considering a 3.6L engine transplant for a CA car? Thanks, Greg

I am very fortunate to live in Georgia, as there are NO smog tests
for any vehicle over 25 years old regardless of what engine you have
in it! So therefore it is "legal". I have the Carrera heat exchangers with a Dansk cat bypass and Dansk stainless muffler.
That said, back in the day before my car was 25 yrs old, my car
with the 964 motor and cat bypass passed the local smog tests
with flying colors. The 964 3.6 is apperently much cleaner than the 3.0 CIS motor that their smog test assumed was in the car. They didn't care about the newer motor.
One fella you might ask about this is a Pelican who goes by the handle Joe Bob. He used to live in Cali (since moved to Colorado) but knows a lot about the process of getting approved and has a 3.6 in his early car.

Just throwing this idea out there.

At the local Caffeine & Octane car show it is common to see high value cars with Montana (or maybe it’s North Dakota?) license plates. They do this for tax reasons. Someone told me it is really cheap to do. Something like you create a corporation that owns the car and get a PO box there.

If that was cheap enough, would that be a way to get around CARB?

CA is hip to that now, and have heard stories of them cracking down. no personal experience, all my cars are pre-smog for a reason...

CO too. You get pulled over with Wyoming or Dakota plates and a CO driver's license youve got some explaining to do.

I am in the long process of rebuilding and installing a 964 3.6l into a 1981sc chassis in CA. I plan on taking it to the Referee.

My exhaust plan is to use 993 heat exchangers (with the flanges flipped) with 993 catalytic converter(s) and no muffler. Hopefully this meets their smog equipment requirements but is questionable because the he’s and cat are from the 993 motor and there will be no muffler (doesn’t fit).

Another potential issue from what I’ve researched is the Stock 964 airbox does not fit into the 911 chassis and I am not sure if the commonly used Evo 964 intake elbow and air filter will be accepted.

An additional challenge will be figuring out the correct way to wire either the oem “hammer” obd 1 port or an obd 2 port of this is required in addition to the CEL (easier to wire).

the stock 964 airbox will fit in your car just fine. I put a 964 into my '80SC many years ago with the stock airbox with no problem. I am sure many others have as well.

I have an 84 m491 with a 3.8 L built by Mark Kinninger and I can tell you irrefutably, that it's an unmitigated blast!

Unless you are going to daily drive the car don't even worry about California. Just get it registered in Montana....

I'm a CA resident and just bought a 1983 SC steel wide body coupe with the idea of doing what Goat has planned for his SC. (The car is on a transporter now headed my way from Florida.) I researched the CARB rules this week and spoke with a CARB referee. After the call, I was somewhat encouraged to proceed with the engine swap. I will be very interested to hear how Goat's project goes as the more I read the more I've concluded that a replacement 3.6L M64 rather than a rebuild of the SC 3.0L is really the way to go if possible. Goat: where are you in CA? I'd love to see your car. Thanks, Greg

Goat, did you delete the muffler because the existing oil tank is in the way? Dave at TRE Motorsports indicated to me that the oil tank has to be moved (into the trunk) to accommodate the muffler.

Tbone, without waiving any legal privileges, did you have your 84 M491 inspected by the CARB referee? I see you are in SF. Is your engine an OBD I or OBD II?

BTW, does anyone want to buy a 2007 Ducati S4RS Monster? Whitre with red stripes, full over sized Brembos, floating rotors, CRG parts everywhere and carbon Termignoni side exhaust. Need the garage space.....:(

I'm in the middle of this very project with my 83 SC. Mine is a Euro car that already has the BAR sticker so they look very closely when it gets smogged.

I bought a 95 vario ram from Timmons. I just did a test fit yesterday and will probably be pulling it back out to weld in a Patrick rear shelf. It seems very tight against the fire wall.
With that said I made sure the motor serial number was a 95 manual transmission.
I had Timmons leave the AIS on it for the visual, but apparently the wire that runs the blower is used to run the Vario ram so if it doesn't pass that way I'll have to hook it up.
I also plan to have the light for the battery relabeled as a check engine light.
The exhaust is stainless headers with twin cats, but for the initial check I'll probably flip the studs and put on my SC exhaust. I heard from another user that this was what they did.
Toby


OB2 is apparently a nightmare so I would avoid it if you could.

here is a link to BAR engine change guidlines
https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Engine_Change_Guidelines.html



here is a link to BAR engine change guidlines
https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Engine_Change_Guidelines.html

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h1...t/IMG_5666.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h1...t/IMG_5664.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h1...t/IMG_5654.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h1...t/IMG_5653.jpg

EDIT: here's a pic of my 964 transplant into my '80SC with the stock airbox installed
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518462892.jpg

Toby,

I like what you are doing. Please let us know how this all works out.

Matt

Fingers crossed. Hope to fire it up soon. I'm sick of not being able to drive it.

So do they actually run your car when you get it smog checked?

The weird thing now (we are in the republic of Kalifornia after all) is for OBD ll cars. They NO LONGER actually TEST the emissions on OBDll cars. They plug into the OBD port and if there are no codes you PASS. WTF, really?

Does this carry over to 3,6 transplants as well?

My understanding is that on an OBD-I car, they use the tail pipe sensor and do a visual inspection to confirm there is a catalytic converter. (Presumably this should apply to a replacement engine that has OBD-I.) For OBD-II cars, I believe they plug into the OBD-II port and take a reading without the visual or the tail pipe sensor. Others probably know more than I do, however.

The one anecdote didn't even pass legally—OBD wired to a fog light switch. Clever and hilarious, but still not fully above BAR.

I don't think they play out-of-state registrations anymore: https://jalopnik.com/the-pitfalls-of-the-montana-license-plate-scam-1711216059

I face this very issue, as I just moved here with a '95 in my '84. uwanna, did you have to trim the top of the airbox to fit? I've been eyeballing mine and it seems certain to interfere with the hinge.

The muffler is the big pain, from what I can tell. It'll cost thousands to relocate the oil tank to the frunk, and I don't know if any other muffler is truly legal (though a 3.2 or GT3 muffler might look the part if you've got 993 headers).

No modification at all, stock airbox fit just fine. I have since installed a
MAF system instead of the flapper box and gone to the cone type air filter though.