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Of 17" Fikse Fuchs and Recaro Pole Positions for a 930 / M491

Greetings all,
I've searched on both of these topics and haven't found suitable / definitive answers.

Subject vehicle is a 1989 911 Carrera M491 Coupe.

First question has to do with 17" Fikse Fuchs widths, offsets and tire availability...

Currently my M491 has stock wheels shod with RE-11s in original (think engine bay decal) tire sizes...
16x7 w/ 205/55-16
16x9 w/ 245-45-16

I am contemplating a full suspension refresh from Elephant Racing (likely their Sport Restoration 2 package with all rubber bushings. Although @technoduck suggested I also consider the KW offering). In conjunction with this, I am considering going with 17" wheels due to the utter lack of 16" tire availability.

I am not looking to stuff the widest possible wheels and tires under the fenders, but rather, I would prefer A) zero fitment i/ rubbing ssues and B) some reasonable assurances of at least medium term tire size availability As such, I was considering "standard" Singer sizes...

Wheel Sizes: 9x17 front and 11x17 rear.
Tires Sizes: 225/45 x 17 front and 265/40 x 17 rear.

Bill Verbug suggested that 265/40-17 may soon suffer a similar fate to the ol' 245/45-16. He went on to suggest 255/40-17 rears. A quick Tirerack search showed plenty of options, including Michelin PS2s. So...

225/45-17 on what width front wheel? What offset?
255/40-17 on what width rear wheel What offset?

My intended use for the vehicle will be mostly street use, with the occasional carving of canyons. Further, I don't envision lowering the car aggressively. Perhaps a bit, but nothing extreme.

A) Would you agree that these are reasonable size wheels (9s & 11s) and tires for my purposes (canyon carving with the occasional track day) and B) If so, what wheel offsets would you suggest? Also, would you spec rear wheel offsets for use with the stock 930 / 491 rear spacers, or would you spec the offset for use without the spacer (and open lug nuts). I suppose an added aesthetic benefit of running "spacer delete" ET would mean the rear wheels would have a deeper dish.


Next, semi-related, question has to do with the installation of Recaro Pole Positions in an '89 G-body Coupe. Are there A) definitive DIY instructions available (parts list, install procedure, etc.) and B) does anyone know if Pole Positions, mounted on adjustable sliders) change the seating height / headroom in comparison to the standard Porsche comfort seat?

Thanks. I very much appreciate this community's support, time and consideration!

Best,
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1987 911 M491 Coupe
1988 911 M491 / M470 Cabrio
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:03 PM
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Pole Position: What you need, in addition to the side brackets (available in steel or aluminium), are the Recaro sliders. They can be mounted directly to the mounting brackets in the car. As far as I remember, you need to drill a hole per slider side to fit exactly to the mounting holes in the car. Don't buy the extra console sometimes offered! Only thing else you need for the driver side is a bracket for the seat belt receiver for the driver side. You can source a Porsche part, I just made a bracket from angle iron. On the passenger side you can re-use the bracket of the original seat.

In my opinion with that set-up, no change in headroom. In my case, as I have a sunroof, when going to the track and wearing a helmet, I do remove the foam out of the lower cushion, that gives me the extra room I need.
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Old 02-04-2018, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by famoroso View Post
Greetings all,
I've searched on both of these topics and haven't found suitable / definitive answers.

Subject vehicle is a 1989 911 Carrera M491 Coupe.

First question has to do with 17" Fikse Fuchs widths, offsets and tire availability...

Currently my M491 has stock wheels shod with RE-11s in original (think engine bay decal) tire sizes...
16x7 w/ 205/55-16
16x9 w/ 245-45-16

I am contemplating a full suspension refresh from Elephant Racing (likely their Sport Restoration 2 package with all rubber bushings. Although @technoduck suggested I also consider the KW offering). In conjunction with this, I am considering going with 17" wheels due to the utter lack of 16" tire availability.

I am not looking to stuff the widest possible wheels and tires under the fenders, but rather, I would prefer A) zero fitment i/ rubbing ssues and B) some reasonable assurances of at least medium term tire size availability As such, I was considering "standard" Singer sizes...

Wheel Sizes: 9x17 front and 11x17 rear.
Tires Sizes: 225/45 x 17 front and 265/40 x 17 rear.

Bill Verbug suggested that 265/40-17 may soon suffer a similar fate to the ol' 245/45-16. He went on to suggest 255/40-17 rears. A quick Tirerack search showed plenty of options, including Michelin PS2s. So...

225/45-17 on what width front wheel? What offset?
255/40-17 on what width rear wheel What offset?

My intended use for the vehicle will be mostly street use, with the occasional carving of canyons. Further, I don't envision lowering the car aggressively. Perhaps a bit, but nothing extreme.

A) Would you agree that these are reasonable size wheels (9s & 11s) and tires for my purposes (canyon carving with the occasional track day) and B) If so, what wheel offsets would you suggest? Also, would you spec rear wheel offsets for use with the stock 930 / 491 rear spacers, or would you spec the offset for use without the spacer (and open lug nuts). I suppose an added aesthetic benefit of running "spacer delete" ET would mean the rear wheels would have a deeper dish.


Next, semi-related, question has to do with the installation of Recaro Pole Positions in an '89 G-body Coupe. Are there A) definitive DIY instructions available (parts list, install procedure, etc.) and B) does anyone know if Pole Positions, mounted on adjustable sliders) change the seating height / headroom in comparison to the standard Porsche comfort seat?

Thanks. I very much appreciate this community's support, time and consideration!

Best,
As always i'd look at what's available in tires and how that choice affects performance
in general and how that affects the wheel/ET choice. Extra width is good, to a point that will depend on the use more than anything else , in general lower profile is good to a point that will depend on road condition and drivers tolerance for NVH, in general shorter is better but that also depends on motor,gearing and use.

Once the tires have been selected then wheels and ET follow to locate the tires correctly and w/o interference in the chassis.

If you go the other route, most seem to, you may end up w/ distorted fitments that may adversely affect overall performance.

so just looking at what's available in 17, and starting in back and only considering street tires, rule of thumb that needs to be followed w/stock gearing, unless you have a 3.6 or better torque curve, OD < 25"
Just as a fyi, when I did this 275/35 x17 was available(for about 1.5yrs) that's a perfect rear for most hi perf 911s OD 24.7" not too tall, not too short, not too wide, not too heavy

245/40 OD 24.2" great for smaller motors because of the gearing, you give up some performance in the corners on a track
255/40 OD 24.8" great compromise all around, for street or track I like this w/ my late 915/tall gearing and 3.6mod
265/40 OD 25.4" for track use you gain some cornering speed, acceleration is hurt everywhere, getting to be a rare tire
275/40 OD 25.7" same as above
315/35 OD 25.6" see 265/40 enhanced
335/35 OD 26" too tall, too heavy too much tire for most purposes, some love the optics

now if you expand your horizon to 18 and do the same
245/35 OD 24.8"
255/35 OD 25"
265/35 OD 25.3" close to the 265/40 x17 but a tad shorter and w/ a tad lower profile, slightly better for track use as result.
275/35 OD 25.6 as in 17s it's getting tall but at least the profile is lower(of course that's not good on pot-holed roads)
285/30 OD 24.8" excellent choice if fenders and ride ht allow, geat all around specs
295/30 OD 25" a tad wider and taller than above
305/30 OD 25" getting tall from here on, track use and lots of speed may warrant the use, GT3 territory

So IMO the best rear w/ the least compromises is either 255/40 x17 or 285/30 x18


You could go the 15" route to here the issue is appropriate wide tires are rare and expensive semi custom builds, w/o gettin too tall there is virtually nothing in 16, It's also difficult to get balanced front sin the 15" sizes
245/45 OD 23.9"
265/40 OD 23.3"
270/45 OD 24.4"
285/40 OD 24"
295/40 OD 24.2"
335/35 OD 24.3"
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Old 02-04-2018, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by famoroso View Post
.......
Next, semi-related, question has to do with the installation of Recaro Pole Positions in an '89 G-body Coupe. Are there A) definitive DIY instructions available (parts list, install procedure, etc.) and B) does anyone know if Pole Positions, mounted on adjustable sliders) change the seating height / headroom in comparison to the standard Porsche comfort seat?

Thanks. I very much appreciate this community's support, time and consideration!

Best,
The install will be very similar to that seen here
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Old 02-04-2018, 07:03 AM
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Here's a concise summary of the decision tree
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:07 AM
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I have 17x9 and 17x11s. I think the 255/40-17 in front and 315/35-17 in rear is a common combo. The amount they hang over the edge of the rim seems similar.
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfhtrhjn View Post
I have 17x9 and 17x11s. I think the 255/40-17 in front and 315/35-17 in rear is a common combo. The amount they hang over the edge of the rim seems similar.
Thanks Sreve,.

Any fitment issues? Rubbing?
What offsets?
Steering effort?
315s are MEATY. Perhaps too much so for a lil ol' stock 3.2.
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1987 911 M491 Coupe
1988 911 M491 / M470 Cabrio
WTB / ISO: G50 911 M491 Coupe or Targa
Old 02-06-2018, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
My intended use for the vehicle will be mostly street use, with the occasional carving of canyons. Further, I don't envision lowering the car aggressively. Perhaps a bit, but nothing extreme.
This ^^^ is all that matters in your decision making.
If the tire/wheel combo is for visual effect then get the combo that looks the part you want. It simply does not matter that a tire is becoming rare or may be discontinued in the near future, that can happen to any size. Get what you want that is available now. If it becomes NLA later then get whatever is next best at that time and use spacers to put the new combo where you want it in the wheel well. If you absolutely must have the tires that are likely to be around longest you'll need to go to 19" wheels, and that just doesn't look right on a Carrera.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
This ^^^ is all that matters in your decision making.
If the tire/wheel combo is for visual effect then get the combo that looks the part you want. It simply does not matter that a tire is becoming rare or may be discontinued in the near future, that can happen to any size. Get what you want that is available now. If it becomes NLA later then get whatever is next best at that time and use spacers to put the new combo where you want it in the wheel well. If you absolutely must have the tires that are likely to be around longest you'll need to go to 19" wheels, and that just doesn't look right on a Carrera.
Sure for a garage queen that you never drive, put the heaviest tallest gumball that can be fit

Who cares if it steers and accelerates like a farm truck, and heck if they stop making the tire it was designed for slap any ole thing on there, it won't make a bit of difference

Follow my suggestions only if you actually intend to drive the car and possibly enjoy the experience
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:37 AM
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I would consider Bills thoughts on gearing very carefully. In my experience with a car like yours which is (I know this is hard to hear) heavy and under powered; you will really kill the performance if you go to tall in the back because of the gearing.

I remember seeing a wide body N/A hot rod in excellence that had 17 x10s in the rear for exactly this reason. He did not need 11s and crazy wide tires. It does look cool though....although if the rear gets too big it looks out of proportion to my eye.
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by famoroso View Post
Thanks Sreve,.

Any fitment issues? Rubbing?
What offsets?
Steering effort?
315s are MEATY. Perhaps too much so for a lil ol' stock 3.2.
I've been noodling wheel tire weights lately, this is an additional drag that has been mentioned before but not properly investigated

The acceleration cost due to gearing effects of taller tires is easily documented

the acceleration cost of heavier and taller tires is not so easily documented, the big manufacturers have dyno to measure that, but there is precious little data about that in the public domain.

what is obvious is that most of the extra weight of a taller wider tire compared to a smaller one is in the tread and the acceleration cost is proportional to the mass and square of the tire radius, The means that even a small change in radius can lead to a relatively large change in acceleration.

as near as I can tell at this time 5#s of extra tire weight at the same radius is the equivalent of ~ 3lb-ft of torque per wheel. for a total of ~12lb-ft engine loss, the chassis wt equivalent for 4 x5# is ~75#s any increase in tire radius compounds that, I am not prepared to say to what extent yet but it will be worse than the above

It is very easy to over tire a car, it only takes a little thought to enhance performance and appearance

What was appropriate for a race car is not necessarily appropriate for a street car.

But it's you car, by all means put the gumballs on it, btw keep in mind that fitment on a SC chassis w 930 fenders is not the same as on a 930 chassis
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:59 AM
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here's a comparison of weight costs, still need to do some work to get the summation of gearing cost + weight cost, but anyway
weight cost of a change from 245/45 x16 RE11 on 9x16 Fuchs to generic 11x17 w/ 315/35 x17 HTR-z is ~ 5lb-ft of engine torque per corner at all speeds, during acceleration or deceleration, there is an additional transient cost YTBD due to any other wheel motion such as up down and turning
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Last edited by Bill Verburg; 02-06-2018 at 07:26 AM..
Old 02-06-2018, 05:54 AM
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Frank - since your signature says you are looking for an M491 coupe, and this post is talking about wheels for an M491 coupe, does that mean you've found the stablemate for your cabrio?
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Old 02-06-2018, 06:40 AM
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Don't get your panties in a wad Bill, it's a street car, not a track car. Looks are important.
Yes I would definitely go 9 & 11 x 17 or 18, but because it is a Carrera and not a Turbo the tires need to be more conservative, something like 235 front and 265 rear. The 245/315 combo is best left for the big boys who don't have to worry about such trivial things as a 5hp/wheel loss, just turn up the boost!

We just finished this beauty seen below, a 1987 M491 G50 Coupe. Complete refresh stem to stern. Yes it is in dyer need of larger wheels than those puny 16x9's out back, and yes it is for sale.


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Old 02-06-2018, 06:22 PM
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I have an 87 Cab M491 ( Looking for a G50 Coupe M491 myself ) . I picked up some BBS RS rims as a spare set; being 3 piece I'm going to get some new halves from Jae Lee ( Mirage International) and have them sized for 17'.

After doing a lot of research on the board and talking to a few local PCA members. I'm planning to go 8x17-fronts/w 225/45-17 , 10x17 - Rears/w 255/40R17 . 3-5k miles per year on windy country roads and no track use. The offset is the only part I have not reviewed yet.

I did not add much to the conversation but I am considering similar sizing as you originally mentioned.
Old 02-06-2018, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Don't get your panties in a wad Bill, it's a street car, not a track car. Looks are important.
Yes I would definitely go 9 & 11 x 17 or 18, but because it is a Carrera and not a Turbo the tires need to be more conservative, something like 235 front and 265 rear. The 245/315 combo is best left for the big boys who don't have to worry about such trivial things as a 5hp/wheel loss, just turn up the boost!

......
More thoughtless advice

265/40 x17 have a max rec'd wheel of 10.5"PS2 or 10" RE760m the GY F1 has no front option so who cares there

If you care more for optics by all means put the biggest tire that can be squeezed on.

again tire choice will depend on the available torque, when you have 3, 4 or more hundred lb-ft available you need more tire than when you have 200 or so.


A little thought and planning goes a long way to providing a more satisfying build

I reiterate, the decision process needs to go like this
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Old 02-07-2018, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by famoroso View Post
Thanks Sreve,.

Any fitment issues? Rubbing?
What offsets?
Steering effort?
315s are MEATY. Perhaps too much so for a lil ol' stock 3.2.

This tire combo is pretty meaty, it's about the largest you can fit without modifying your fenders. Bill is right in that, if you run big wheel/tires, you want to back it with enough power. But damn they look good.

Each car is different, they shouldn't rub. For example, most wide body fenders have about 14" of width in the rear under the fender. The section width on a 315/35 is about 12.6". If your wheel was centered and you had exactly 14" to work with, you'd have about 11/16" space on either side of the tire. It's tight fit.

That being said, 285/40 would also fit (section width 11.4") in this example and leave you more room.

I don't know my offsets, and the steering effort is a little more at slow speeds.

I love the look of the 9"/11" stagger, and to address Bill's point, I'll be putting down a lot more power soon. Just depends on what you like and what you plan on doing with the car.
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Old 02-07-2018, 09:07 AM
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here's a comparison of the change from 7 & 9 205/55 & 245/45 to 9 & 11 255/40 & 315/35 assuming some pretty light 9 & 11 x17 wheels, inaddition to the wt cost there is an additional tire OD cost that is not seen here, the Tire OD cost is ~12lb-ft per extra inch of tire height, ~ 6lb-ft per .5" and so on
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:08 AM
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There’s no need to be rude Bill, everyone is entitled to their opinion and the only one that counts belongs to the owner of the car. Yes I like to fill out the wheel wells of widebodies, that’s what wide fenders are for. Yes a Carrera engine will struggle under the extra load of 315mm tires which is why I suggested something more modest. Wide rims make a skinny tire look wider which is a decent compromise in my book. If this were a competitive track car then do what the track guys do. It’s a street car so you can stray off from optimal physics if you can live with the compromises.
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Theres no need to be rude Bill, everyone is entitled to their opinion and the only one that counts belongs to the owner of the car. Yes I like to fill out the wheel wells of widebodies, thats what wide fenders are for. Yes a Carrera engine will struggle under the extra load of 315mm tires which is why I suggested something more modest. Wide rims make a skinny tire look wider which is a decent compromise in my book. If this were a competitive track car then do what the track guys do. Its a street car so you can stray off from optimal physics if you can live with the compromises.
Not rude just responding in kind, I never said that anyone wasn't entitled

however if the the advice is erroneous or otherwise bad expect to be called on it.

track or not isn't the real point here

The cost of larger wheels and tires is something that has been elided over for years, I've finally gotten around to getting at least a preliminary grip on it.

again for years people have been wanting to move to smaller wheels and tires for good reason,

If someone wants to do this and accepts the costs fine, they just ought to know what those costs are and they also deserve honest unbiased info along the way

telling someone to put a 265 on an 11 is in the category of poor advice, telling someone that it works fine on a 400hp turbo so it will work fine on their 200hp M491 is also bad advice or at least in the category of maybe some more thought could be put in to this.

I'm all for modifying things, not so much for slowing the car down or hurting handling and I've made my share of bad decisions, now w/ data I can see why some of those decisions were bad and how better ones could have been made.
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