911sc 3.0 to 3.2 and CA emissions

[dlr308]

Contemplating equivalent of a Max Moritz upgrade to 911sc (3.0 to 3.2 and higher compression). This is a CA car and so I'm wondering about smog test implications after engine rebuild. Car is a 1979 and so I might just have to pass sniffer after 2019, but would I even pass that?

[1979-930]

The larger pistons won’t cause you to fail. Large Cams and ignition timing will.
I have a Mustang that has been punched from 4.6L to 5.2L with trick flow heads and a mild cam that pass the sniffer.
You will need to pass visual. Just plan on swapping exhaust every two years for one day.


Sent from my iPhone while Driving

[gshiwota]

The visual inspection is the tough one. For example, I once painted my stock Cat Converter on my 911sc just to clean up the engine. I passed the sniffer but I failed the smog visual because the tester said that I had replaced my cat with a new one. I argued and explained that I simply painted the cat. He wouldn't have it and failed me anyway. I was forced to buy a new CA certified cat and get the car tested again.

[Flojo]

Originally Posted by gshiwota

. I was forced to buy a new CA certified cat and get the car tested again.

really?! I mean, TüV in Germany is strict, but when I read this from you CA-guys I'm sorry for you.
In Germany when you pass emission, you pass emission. Period.

[emcon5]

I did, with 964 cams.

If you keep the exhaust stock, it should pass just fine.

[kjchristopher]

Mine passed the sniffer for over a decade, 3.2 with 964 cams. That was with both SSI exhaust (obviously won't pass visual) and stock exhaust with hi-flow cat (which also won't pass visual). Motor can be clean enough. Helps to have a blind smog guy.

[Tremelune]

You'll need every piece of equipment used on the 3.2, but if you have that, it should pass if it's in good trim. Most places would have a hard time noticing the difference between a 3.0 and a 3.2 anyway. If you're bringing it from out of state, I believe there is a more thorough inspection.

There's no sliding window in California, so the rules for a '79 are the same as for later cars until a law changes. It's gotta pass a visual inspection and the smog test, but should be quite doable if you have a complete motor.

['76 911S 3.0]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

You'll need every piece of equipment used on the 3.2, but if you have that, it should pass if it's in good trim. Most places would have a hard time noticing the difference between a 3.0 and a 3.2 anyway. If you're bringing it from out of state, I believe there is a more thorough inspection.

There's no sliding window in California, so the rules for a '79 are the same as for later cars until a law changes. It's gotta pass a visual inspection and the smog test, but should be quite doable if you have a complete motor.

OP was referring to 98mm P/C combo...he will still need the '79 injection and emissions equipment.

[Tremelune]

Originally Posted by '76 911S 3.0

OP was referring to 98mm P/C combo...he will still need the '79 injection and emissions equipment.

I don't think that's so. If you swap everything from the 3.2, it will need to pass whatever the specs were for that year 3.2. You would keep no equipment from the '79 motor (unless you were hoping to slide through the visual without mentioning the change).

https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Engine_Change_Guidelines.html

"Mixing and matching emission control system components could cause problems and is generally not allowed."

"No internal or external engine modifications (cams, pistons, intakes, etc.) may be performed unless the parts are ARB-exempted or EPA-certified for use in the installed engine."

California smog is like 50 shades of gray with what you can get through. You can pay your cousin's buddy to sneak you through with whatever, and you can go through the hoops of getting everything 100%...at which point a referee may still find a painted cat and fail you...and you have to try and squeeze through another place...

It's a really bad system. It should just be a sniff test, but I guess enough people are willing to swap exhausts or re-map chips regularly that they go with the visual, too. If you put a newer motor in the car and keep the cat, they should just say "good for you" and send you on your way.

['76 911S 3.0]

He is referring to making his 3.0L a 3.2 with some Max Moritz P/C's. Visually, his engine would be the same. '79 emissions equipment still required.

If he was swapping to a 3.2 with Motronic, he would need to go to the State Referee and have the swap certified. Since he is only swapping pistons and cylinders, he could get away with leaving the CIS and might need a slight tweak to the control pressures but that's about it.

And when you find a smog tech that can tell the difference between a 98mm jug and a 95mm jug, please let me know (would like to conduct research on how his x-ray vision works). My 3.2SS looked IDENTICAL to a 3.0L with the CIS and numbers out the tailpipe were the same.

[Tremelune]

Ah—got it—I totally misunderstood. The same question lurks in the back of my mind, but with a 3.2...

[dlr308]

Thanks everyone - yes Jayson has got it perfectly and it looks like he has done the same thing. So the engine stays a 1979 and I need air pump and cat to pass visual. But don't forget that the visual may not be required for non daily drivers from 2019. Hence my concern with just the sniffer. I would have thought the small bump in displacement would likely cause a similar small bump in emissions, but if not, great.

[Revvin 911S]

Originally Posted by dlr308

Thanks everyone - yes Jayson has got it perfectly and it looks like he has done the same thing. So the engine stays a 1979 and I need air pump and cat to pass visual. But don't forget that the visual may not be required for non daily drivers from 2019. Hence my concern with just the sniffer. I would have thought the small bump in displacement would likely cause a similar small bump in emissions, but if not, great.

Sorry to hijack, but what exactly do you mean by “the visual might not be required in 2019?” There used to be a 30 year or older exemption, but this was frozen in 2005, making ‘75 and older cars smog exempt. I specifically bought my ‘74 because it is exempt and I can do whatever I want to the engine.

But my understanding is that everything ‘76 and on there was no break at all. I would love to be wrong about this. If something had changed in CA, can you please provide the details and a reference? Thank you!

[dlr308]

Just responding to Revin 911S (couldn't get the quote msg in reply to work).

CA governor signed State Assembly Bill 1274 on October 10, 2017. Bill is effective Jan 1, 2019.
Bill states:

(c) For purposes of subdivision (a {this is biennial smog requirement}), a collector motor vehicle, as defined in Section 259 of the Vehicle Code, is exempt from those portions of the test required by subdivision (f {this is the visual inspection}) of Section 44012 if the collector motor vehicle meets all of the following criteria:
(1) Submission of proof that the motor vehicle is insured as a collector motor vehicle, as shall be required by regulation of the bureau.
(2) The motor vehicle is at least 35 model-years old.
(3) The motor vehicle complies with the exhaust emissions standards for that motor vehicle’s class and model-year as prescribed by the department, and the motor vehicle passes a functional inspection of the fuel cap and a visual inspection for liquid fuel leaks.

So this now covers post 1975 cars, but:
1. Sniffer is still required every 2 years, but not the visual check on emissions.
2.There is the visual for fuel leaks as quoted above - what happens if they inspect and see EFI or similar???
3.It only applies to non-daily drivers, so limited annual miles cars.

dr

[somoney311]

I'm anxiously waiting until 2019 to see if that portion of the law will be what we hope for.

[1979-930]

^^^ Unfortunately the wording is not specific enough. The BAR is not going to acknowledge this as change. After further historic research I found this section has been there for about 10 years.
In order for Joe at the local test station to be aware of this and not perform a visual on your car the BAR would need to release notification or put a special exemption sticker on your car as a Collector Vehicle. Neither will happen.
I have already had an argument with the Referee Supervisor in this area about it. This was after talking to the Referee Inspector who had never seen the section and admitted his interpretation was visual would not be needed. But he said I had to call the main office and talk to the supervisor. The supervisor won't even discuss or acknowledge that the section exempts the vehicle from visual.

[Evan K.]

My suggestion would be to go to a semi-local smog shop and ask them to check their book on what they are required to check for your particular model year. For my ‘77 they book only gave max emission values and that timing be set at 0 degrees (TDC). As far as visual, your fine with the larger P&Cs.

[Tremelune]

Originally Posted by 1979-930

^^^ Unfortunately the wording is not specific enough. The BAR is not going to acknowledge this as change. After further historic research I found this section has been there for about 10 years.
In order for Joe at the local test station to be aware of this and not perform a visual on your car the BAR would need to release notification or put a special exemption sticker on your car as a Collector Vehicle. Neither will happen.
I have already had an argument with the Referee Supervisor in this area about it. This was after talking to the Referee Inspector who had never seen the section and admitted his interpretation was visual would not be needed. But he said I had to call the main office and talk to the supervisor. The supervisor won't even discuss or acknowledge that the section exempts the vehicle from visual.

This is...extraordinarily disappointing. It really seems personal, somehow.

[Revvin 911S]

@dlr308, Thank you for that information.

I had read (on another thread here) of a bill that was not approved a couple years ago trying to reinstate the 30 year rolling exemption. I suppose we can hope that this will be some progress towards relief on being able to more easily modify our cars. I would suspect that despite the age of the cars, most of our cars are very well maintained and even with modifications that would “fail” visual, still run within the emmissions allowances for their given year.

I look forward to updates when this goes into effect.

[DonNewton]

Friends:
It appears the expressed desire of those "wonderfully useless" individuals in Sacramento is to remove all vehicles older than 1995 from the pristine roadways in the the Golden State. Seeing as how my 911 is from 1983 and my 914 (with a '75 six) is a 1975, I'm perfectly in their cross hairs. Oh, should I not have used a firearms term in today's world? Will this trigger someone? The only thing we can do is write our elected representatives and express our desires. Won't make any difference, but at least you'll get to tell them what you think. My state assemblywoman is too busy pushing for free diapers and making cheer leading a sport to care what I think.