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Richard, I have a complete S/S exhaust system from my 3.6 that I'll give you a great deal on, if you need it. I bought a 3.6 for my 914 and do not need any of the exhaust components. I have the exchangers/cat/mufflers/clamps/brackets, everything. Not looking to make a fortune on it, just want it to go to someone who could use it.

Old 11-28-2002, 07:31 PM
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Richard, You can use your stock 3.2 exhaust, as Jack did, or SSI as I initially did. All of us seem to have switched to the B&B 1.75". I know that it is the best that I have had on my car. I am sure that there would be litle difference w/ the B&B 1.5". I do feel that the SSI is on the small side but still adequate for normal street use(though I have seen 964's w/ 270 @ the wheels using SSI along w/ other mods). Jack seemed ok w/ his 3.2 exhaust for street use, but switched when the track bug bit.

Steve Timmins kits seem to me to be fairly comprehensive. The only other thing to worry about is oil cooling, where I highly recommend a B&B spoiler mounted cooler.
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Old 11-29-2002, 05:14 AM
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Sounds like a great deal to me...hope you sell it soon.
I am looking for a 3.6 as well...but my finances will not roll in until Feb, plus I am in Germany where the shipping would cost quite a bit as well.

I will check back in Feb, maybe you or Steve will have something.
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Old 11-30-2002, 06:11 AM
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Bill, How's the 3.8 coming along? Any time line as to the 964 availability?
Old 12-09-2002, 04:22 AM
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Hi Alf! It smoving along, case and heads are at the machine shop, all of the parts are in. Maybe early Jan.
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Old 12-14-2002, 06:01 AM
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Bill,

Can the heat be made to work with your setup?

What is the weight penalty going into an SC, and do you think suspension upgrades are mandatory to handle the additional weight?

Olivier
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Old 12-17-2002, 01:06 PM
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The weight penalty is minimal and suspension upgrades to accomodate the extra weight are not mandatory (speaking from experience).
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Old 12-17-2002, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Can the heat be made to work with your setup?
Certainly, this pic is the installation in my 76 Carrera



You can see that I have the stock heater fan, which is blowing into the stock heat manifolds, which are hooked up to the B&B headers, previously I had the ducts hooked up to SSIs, and the same sort of ducting would work for SC/Carrera heat also. Unfortunately I need to keep the heaters and lower heat ducts for my 993 install, but they(the ducts) are cheap and readily available.

The weight penalty for an SC w/ AC going to a 964 w/o AC is just about zero, if AC is retained there is ~25# increase w/ the 964. No suspension mods are necessary. You will need a good oil cooler though, I highly recommend the front spoiler mounted B&B.
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Last edited by Bill Verburg; 12-17-2002 at 04:33 PM..
Old 12-17-2002, 04:27 PM
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I have SSIs and a front-spoiler mounted Earl's cooler.

This is very tempting, but I just can't justify it given the timing of other projects and my original plans for the car.

Anyone know what the market is supporting in terms of price for a complete 82 SC motor that runs great?

Olivier
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Old 12-17-2002, 04:45 PM
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Anyone know what the market is supporting in terms of price for a complete 82 SC motor that runs great?
Moses sold his 3.0 with about 90K original miles on it for $5K. I'll asking $4K for a completely rebuilt 3.0 built on a 85 case with the early heads and 80K miles. If ebay and Moses sale are any indications of the market, I'd say between $3500-$5000.
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Old 12-17-2002, 04:58 PM
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Can't decide!

This is still tempting me and driving me crazy. The difference between what I could get for my 3.0 which is running fine and this motor is not that great, but the capital "float" would be a big risk, and I have been spending big $$$ on all my cars recently.

I definitely want EFI eventually, and this is a way to get that plus a more powerful motor at the same time...Makes it hard for me to put any more money into even tuning my CIS, or getting a TEC-3 kit.

I have heard the SC motors praised as "bulletproof" once all the known issues are addressed, like tensioners, head studs, pop-off, etc. I have also heard some negatives about the 3.6 engines as they reach the higher mileage ranges, like high temps (only with "sound guard" below the engine?), head "gasket" issues, distributor belts, valve guides?, exhaust valves?

Can anyone who is running one of these motors enlighten me to these issues, the years they affected (I think the head gasket issue was only in earlier production runs), and I know there is a kit to address the distributor venting issue.

Is this the motor with hydaulic valve tensioners, or is that a later design?

Any compression or leakdown figures?

How do the power and torque curves of a 964 and 3.0 (stock and built up) motor compare?

I am having a lot of trouble deciding between my original plan of eventually supercharging or increasing the displacement of my 3.0 along with some stengthening of the bottom end once it finally develops an issue that requires a rebuld (113k so far) and getting a larger EFI motor like this one. With EFI, twin-plugging, etc, this sounds like the cheaper alternative, but I have concerns about the small conversion stuff (cruise control, A/C, etc?) and the reliability of the 3.6 compared to the 3.0.

The car is a daily driver, with a few autocrosses and DEs a year. My number one priority is to have a bulletproof engine, followed by enough power and useable torque to have fun without getting in trouble (the 3.0 is already fun when I wind it out) and causing reliability issues or ossues further down the powertrain line.

Olivier
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Last edited by ohecht; 12-19-2002 at 07:49 AM..
Old 12-19-2002, 07:45 AM
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Bill,

I saw a Steve Timmons ad in an old PCA magazine that seems to describe your motor exactly, but it is way too old.

Do you know what sort of credit Steve would give for a complete (minus exhaust) 3.0 motor with 113k miles that is in the car and running fine against the installation of the 964 motor?

Or as a simple motor + $$$ trade if I do the installation myself?

Olivier
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Last edited by ohecht; 12-19-2002 at 08:00 AM..
Old 12-19-2002, 07:58 AM
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OK, I just realized that Steve Timmons runs the Instant-G shop that I saw a while ago.

Tons of 964 conversion kits and information.

Seems like a huge selection of upgrades and options. Decisions, decisions. I am sure there are a lot of his customers on this board, and I would be interested in their experiences, opinions, etc.

Thanks,

Olivier
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:15 AM
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Olivier, Slow down take a deep breath, do your homework. You are agonizing over the same thing that many of us have over the years. You are where I was in 1994. But you have the advantage of a lot of experience here and at Rennlist. Use these sources for guidance in whatever you do.

To me the swap is a no brainer because it's all plus with very few minus. A stock 964/993 is a wonderfully reliable torquey engine. I did my transplant in '94 w/ a very low milage '93 engine and have had zero problems or complaints. Some of the earlier engines had problems w/ head gaskets, but this was cured by a redesign in '92, distributor belts can break but the vent kit introduced in '93 seems to have alleviated that problem. Heat has been the enemy since day one and became more critical starting w/ the 3.2s. For various reasons the factory felt that it was ok to let the engines run hotter, this combined w/ higher milage is a killer to valve guides. The cure is to keep oil temps under 220&degF, stock 964/993 often run to 250&degF. At worst if guides are needed it is a great excuse to do cams. 993ss cams on stock 964 w/ a chip will give an easy(tractable) and reliable ~300hp. I have seen it many times. That was my plan untill some other very attractive options fell into my hot little hands.

Steve has a nice summary of the different years attributes at his site, I won't go into the details but I agree totally w/ his assessments. Best is a euro varioram 993, followed by a '95 993 followed by a '92-94 964, then the earlier 964s. Prices will reflect the desireability.

Notably absent from the above list is US '96-98 993 varioram due to complications involving OBDII electronics. Not to mention the problematic air pump systems used on US versions.

My engine you will note is not the most desireable(going into my best imitation of a salesman here, feel free to ignore the following), but nevertheless will not have the problems associated w/ earlier versions and is priced very fairly. '93 was a good year over all, the plastic intakes are a plus, the dist. vent kit is a plus, the fact that oil temps have always been under 210 is a plus. The milage is a bit of a minus(but still low for the year), the valve guides while still fine are starting to show the tiniest bit of wear reflected in oil consumption of ~2 qts in 3500 mi. the last compression test was done last winter when the engine was out for a transmission swap, valves were adjusted and the entire engine inspected at that time, everything was nominal. The car was dynoed in May and the nominal 250hp@ 6100 rpm was indicated.

I speak w/ Steve frequently but not about prices for used engines, I do know that he is annoyed w/ good reason about all of the tire kickers that want free information, part of doing business I guess.

The price difference between a 3.6 swap and sale of the old engine as you have noted is relatively small, making the swap financially attractive as well as attractive from a performance point of view. Whether you buy my engine or someone elses you will be very happy w/ the resulting product and as noted previously there is room for all sorts of performance upgrades if desired. Feel free to contact me privatey if you need additional info.
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Old 12-19-2002, 01:49 PM
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Thanks, Bill. I read Steve's entire site, and I am definitely slowing down. These things do not work out when rushed. Waiting (a very long time) for the Euro varioram may be tempting.

What this has shown me is that my original idea of slowly building my own engine (I am fairly attached to it) may be the most expensive route rather than the most economical.

Putting quality parts in the bottom end and replacing P&Cs, the crank, etc. to get something like a SS 3.4 would be far more $$$ than the engine swaps. A supercharger and the required strengthening would total even more, since reliability and longevity are high on my list.

I really enjoyed reading Steve's site and wondering how he got into the business. It seems like a great combination of expertise and down to earth approaches, and I feel fortunate that he is not all the way across the country.

Olivier
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Old 12-19-2002, 02:38 PM
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There is no doubt that the euro varioram is alluring, but they all have about he same mileage as mine and will probably be in somewhat poorer shape due to european driving conditions and resulting higher temp/stress. If you go that route you might want to consider a tiptronic version. It will likely have seen less abuse.

My euro 993Rs has been torn down to the crankshaft and will recieve all new hardware, from rod bolts to headstuds. In addition to p/c, cams, valves etc.

Here is a 360 hp 964. Still supposed to be streetable(but I don't believe that, I looked at a couple of 993 RSR in that same range and neither would run on 94 octane)
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Old 12-19-2002, 04:04 PM
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Hard to believe Bill hasn't sold his motor. If I hadn't already bought my 3.6, his motor would be on it's way to California right now.

1) Truthfully, the performance changes from '93 to '97 are incremental, not staggering.

2) Look at Bill's car. Is there any doubt that the motor has been meticulously maintained?

3) Look at Bill's cooling setup. This motor has not been running hot.

4) The motor is from a previously successful transplant. Chip/flywheel/wiring/exhaust all worked out.

5) This is as close to plug-and-play as it gets.

6) If you are doing this yourself, the seller is a tremendous resource.

Just surprised this motor isn't sold. Someone step up to the plate! This might be delaying Bill's 3.8RS project and I want to see it NOW!
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Old 12-22-2002, 07:40 PM
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I concur with Moses. I was about two days away from buying Bill's motor (I was travelling at the time), when I fell into a super sweet deal on a rebuilt and upgraded 3.2 that I just couldn't pass up.
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Old 12-22-2002, 07:51 PM
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Good point about the Euro Varioram. I am trying to explain to my wife that this would actually be the less expensive route towards engine upgrades and longevity, if I stop thinking about buying upgrades for my 3.0.

I really just don't have the cash or "project room" (2 Jeep axles in my small garage already awaiting transplants) right now to get in the middle of this swap.

Maybe next month I will get some compression figures for my 3.0 and see what the market will bear...

Olivier
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Old 12-23-2002, 07:58 AM
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Thanks for the kind words guys! I'm currently 2000mi from home enjoying family and ocean. Hope you all have a great Holiday!

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Old 12-24-2002, 06:11 AM
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