Ballpark cost to re-engine a 1976 912E

[heliskimaster]

Hello,

I’m looking at purchasing a 912E In CO but concerns exist about It’s abilities to pass emissions into the future. I’m making a passing emissions test a condition of purchase but have concerns about a future sale. Fuel injection parts seem rare to find and the car currently has Weber carbs on it, so re-engining the car with a 911 engine seems a possible option. I’m just wondering what a rough cost of this effort would be.

Thanks in advance for your response!

[jess p]

Installing a 911 engine might cause you more problems for emissions. To install a 911 engine at the least you need to install an oil tank and change over the engine mounts. To pass emissions the engine must be a 76 or later and must have all the emissions equipment that came with the 76 911. Most 76 and later 911’s used cis which if you are familiar requires a fair amount of adjustments to pass today’s rigorous emissions testing. Of course more power means more brakes, clutch which would tax that 901. If it were my car I’d keep the Weber’s and register the car as a collector classic. Collector car status exempts you from emissions. The biggest mistake people make is doing an engine swap into a 912 that they will regret. Ask me how I know.

65 912
66 912 with V8 Sb Chevy conversion with 915 trans.
66 912 converted to type 4
70 914
71 914
76 911S
82 911SC

[wkrtsm]

Have you checked on costs of rebuilding a flat six for a 911? Even a 4-cyl would cost a bundle for necessary machining for lower and upper end. Plus you'd want Nicke/Mahle pistons/heads, which are not cheap.

[jess p]

I will give you an estimate for a 911 conversion, but first I’ll tell you NOT to do it. You will ruin the value of that 912. If you want a 911, then buy a 911!
1) 911 oil tank used maybe $200
2) 76 911 2.7 engine Cis in decent running condition $5000 and up
3) 911 engine mounts from a junk yard $100
4) Cost of welding those engine mounts in by a competent welder ???
5) Cost of mounting the CDI unit, 911 CIS fuel pump and associated plumbing ???
6) Wiring harness interface ???
Total cost ???
Total horsepower from a 74-76 911 2.7 CIS 150hp
Cons of doing this swap
1) $$$
2) lots of time
3) added weight
4) 912E will be misbalanced with this 911
5) original 901 which is a 914 trans is not geared correctly to the 911 engine
6) clutch problems will soon follow
Now, 914 2.0L engines came with 90 hp. On my 914 2.0L I added a scat cam, 40mm Weber’s, a Bursch exhaust and with those add ones I’m at about 120Hp. Why would you spend thousands of dollars for a weight penalty and all the headaches for a 30 hp gain and no guarantee of passing emissions with a 911 2.7 Cis engine.

[heliskimaster]

Thanks @jess p and @wkrtsm for your responses. I’m as green as grass to the Porsche world, vintage cars and related so I’m out to try and figure out my dilemma of how to make a ‘76 912E potentially marketable down the road in the face of known emissions challenges. In CO an emissions test is required when title changes hands but given its age, it would be considered a collector car and not have to pass annual tests.

I am open to additional feedback-

Thanks

[jess p]

I love 912’s. When I first started buying the air cooled Porsche’s I initially did not appreciate 912’s but that was my fault. I think the 912E is an awesome car, it will have considerable collectibility in the years to come in part due to it being one year production only. I wish I had bought one!
You see the 912E has the 914 engine which as a type 4 which shares with the VW bus. The type 4, 914 cases are bullet proof and they are not expensive to rebuild. I prefer the Weber’s or delorto carbs and appreciate the original fuel injection on the 912E is a carry over from the 914. That system is 50 years old, expensive and difficult to troubleshoot.

[cmpski]

Jess is giving good advice. Don't do it, but if you must buy an aluminum case SC or Carrera engine and pray it doesn't need a rebuild. Mag case 2.7's have a rather poor history. 912E's are cool cars.
They have a one year transmission (523) not 901,911, or 915. It's a mix of a 901 and 915. They have solid rotor brakes that will need upgrading for a 6 that will put out 150 to 180 hp.
I build 912 POLO cars, (A 4 cylinder 911 engine. Very expensive). This is no joke. A new GT3 RS is less expensive if all the proper upgrades are put in place. (180K plus ++) If you are a really good DIY'er then take off the labor. Go buy a SC or Carrera if you want more HP. In the long run it will be less expensive. Or if you can find a really nice 74 911 for under 40K. They have almost no emissions and you'll have the 912E look with a 911 engine. I doubt you can buy an really nice 912E and properly convert it with a healthy 6 for 40K. For me if I was a 6 cylinder guy and I'm not, I would look for the best 74 I could find and put a 78/79 SC engine in it. Like the 912E they are light cars and fun to drive. But they do not have handling of the 912 and 912E as they carry 80 to 100 extra pounds behind the rear axle.
Also if you are green to the Porsche world PLEASE take the car for a pre purchase inspection! Cars built before 76 have no rust protection. Many of these cars have hidden rust and proper rust repair is also very expensive. I'm in the Denver area and would recommend Eisenbud's (303-825-0322) to do a PPI. They are at 8th and I25.
Chris Pomares

I saw your thread on the 912 Registry. Most are recommending not to do it.

[Jrboulder]

Originally Posted by jess p

Installing a 911 engine might cause you more problems for emissions. To install a 911 engine at the least you need to install an oil tank and change over the engine mounts. To pass emissions the engine must be a 76 or later and must have all the emissions equipment that came with the 76 911. Most 76 and later 911’s used cis which if you are familiar requires a fair amount of adjustments to pass today’s rigorous emissions testing. Of course more power means more brakes, clutch which would tax that 901. If it were my car I’d keep the Weber’s and register the car as a collector classic. Collector car status exempts you from emissions. The biggest mistake people make is doing an engine swap into a 912 that they will regret. Ask me how I know.

65 912
66 912 with V8 Sb Chevy conversion with 915 trans.
66 912 converted to type 4
70 914
71 914
76 911S
82 911SC

Originally Posted by jess p

I will give you an estimate for a 911 conversion, but first I’ll tell you NOT to do it. You will ruin the value of that 912. If you want a 911, then buy a 911!
1) 911 oil tank used maybe $200
2) 76 911 2.7 engine Cis in decent running condition $5000 and up
3) 911 engine mounts from a junk yard $100
4) Cost of welding those engine mounts in by a competent welder ???
5) Cost of mounting the CDI unit, 911 CIS fuel pump and associated plumbing ???
6) Wiring harness interface ???
Total cost ???
Total horsepower from a 74-76 911 2.7 CIS 150hp
Cons of doing this swap
1) $$$
2) lots of time
3) added weight
4) 912E will be misbalanced with this 911
5) original 901 which is a 914 trans is not geared correctly to the 911 engine
6) clutch problems will soon follow
Now, 914 2.0L engines came with 90 hp. On my 914 2.0L I added a scat cam, 40mm Weber’s, a Bursch exhaust and with those add ones I’m at about 120Hp. Why would you spend thousands of dollars for a weight penalty and all the headaches for a 30 hp gain and no guarantee of passing emissions with a 911 2.7 Cis engine.

Some stuff needs to be cleared up.

(1) The 912E already has 911 engine mount provisions installed from the factory. Any 912E started life on the production line as a 911 body with a few extra brackets welded on in certain places. You will need to remove the ECU cubby from the oil tank opening in the body. The entire conversion is nearly bolt-up.

(2) The 912E doesn't use a 901/902/914 or any variant of such. It uses the 923/02 box which is a mag case 915 with a 7:31 RP, an electronic speedo and a tall 4th and 5th gears. It does have a unique throw out system to utilize the 901/914 style pressure plates that require a push instead of the 911/915 pull. People who have done this conversion have detailed the off the shelf clutch parts used to make this work.

[cmpski]

Sorry on the 523. I meant 923. And I didn't know about the 911 engine mount. One can always learn more about these cars. Thanks.

[heliskimaster]

Thanks Chris and jrboulder, appreciate the responses.

The car didn’t pass CO emissions test last week so it was at Eisenbuds this week getting tuned to hopefully pass next time. No mention of visual “failure” with the Weber’s and no fuel injection... so I’m letting sleeping dogs lie on that issue.

[jess p]

Originally Posted by Jrboulder

Some stuff needs to be cleared up.

(1) The 912E already has 911 engine mount provisions installed from the factory. Any 912E started life on the production line as a 911 body with a few extra brackets welded on in certain places. You will need to remove the ECU cubby from the oil tank opening in the body. The entire conversion is nearly bolt-up.

(2) The 912E doesn't use a 901/902/914 or any variant of such. It uses the 923/02 box which is a mag case 915 with a 7:31 RP, an electronic speedo and a tall 4th and 5th gears. It does have a unique throw out system to utilize the 901/914 style pressure plates that require a push instead of the 911/915 pull. People who have done this conversion have detailed the off the shelf clutch parts used to make this work.

Dosen’t matter about what the 912E came with. What does matter is what he will spend in dollars, time, sourcing parts to try to make this all work. He will have to install
at least a 76 911 Cis to comply with emissions. Would it make sense to install a 3.0L Cis, No. Only 2092 912E’s were built, very limited in production. Why ruin a great car? If he wants a 911, buy one.

[914werke]

Option : I have in my stash an E engine complete with HE's Eng. mount & OE FI. Only the 923 & muffler were missing. FS?

[914werke]

Originally Posted by jess p

the E has the 914 (2.0L) engine which as a type 4 which shares with the VW bus. The type 4, 914 cases are bullet proof and they are not expensive to rebuild. I prefer the Weber’s or delorto carbs and appreciate the original fuel injection on the 912E is a carry over from the 914. That system is 50 years old, expensive and difficult to troubleshoot.

More clarity is necessary. The 2.0L that was installed in the E is essentially the 914 motor with the L-Jet FI system from the 1.8L (914). Other than it being a T4 it is not comparable to a bus motor.
"they are not expensive to rebuild" Uh...perhaps compared to a /6 but they are not cheap if done right. A stock rebuilt LB will be in the 5K range, want more bring $$ & spend it in the heads you will be happy you did.
As to the FI system being "expensive and difficult to troubleshoot" again only to the uninitiated

[jess p]

Originally Posted by 914werke

More clarity is necessary. The 2.0L that was installed in the E is essentially the 914 motor with the L-Jet FI system from the 1.8L (914). Other than it being a T4 it is not comparable to a bus motor.
"they are not expensive to rebuild" Uh...perhaps compared to a /6 but they are not cheap if done right. A stock rebuilt LB will be in the 5K range, want more bring $$ & spend it in the heads you will be happy you did.
As to the FI system being "expensive and difficult to troubleshoot" again only to the uninitiated

The engine codes for 914 2.0L type 4 are GA. The engine code for a vw bus 2.0L are GC. I’ve been swapping 2.0L bus engine cases and cranks into 914’s for decades. In 1980 I rebuilt the engine in my 914 for less than $200 and if I had to I could do it today as well for less than $200. Are you saying 5K engine assuming someone else does the work, that seems high. It’s useless to put more $$ in just heads alone. That should be complimented with cam and exhaust. Even Porsche repair shops have a cumbersome time with L-jet, the system is 50 years old. Have you priced the CPU and the AFM lately, how about finding them nos. What about the FI wiring harness, find any one that makes aftermarket. Good luck with that. You got a good volt-ohm meter and you are 3 states away. The CPU acts as if it’s in limp home mode, what are you going to do then.

[914werke]

Originally Posted by jess p

In 1980 I rebuilt the engine in my 914 for less than $200 and if I had to I could do it today as well for less than $200.

ROFLMAO!!! Yaaa ...good luck my friend. BTW You might check a calendar, Im quite certain its the 21st century

[jess p]

Originally Posted by 914werke

ROFLMAO!!! Yaaa ...good luck my friend. BTW You might check a calendar, Im quite certain its the 21st century

A type 4 can be rebuilt for less than $200 and yes at today’s prices. and not only that but according to you the FI on those cars are not expensive and not difficult to troubleshoot.. But really what cracks me up is people saying oh, bring more money $$ in heads and you will be happy you did. What Heads, bigger valves, what’s the point. An engine is an air pump and you are not going to get that air moving unless you do something with the cam and exhaust. POINTLESS!
Reminds me of the neighbor kids, we’re putting this Holley 850 cfm carb on our stock SB Chevy. Or the comment” just slap a turbo on it and be done”

But then, apparently you are not so initiated since you don’t know how to rebuild a type 4 LB for under $200

[cason880]

I'm actually in the middle of converting my 912e to a 2.7 911 right now and I have spent $9511 to make it happen. Fortunately some 912e parts can be sold to mitigate the cost but it is pretty expensive. Some things you will need:

911 Engine (Mine was a great deal at ~$3800 so factor that into your budget)
Ignition (Im using MSD 6AL instead of the stock CDI for cost and performance reasons)
Clutch Setup (there's lots of debate on how to use the 923 trans. Personally, I am using a standard 911 flywheel and pressure plate with a 70/71 clutch disk, you'll have to convert the throwout bearing to the 911 pull style but all the parts bolts up)
Throttle cable is routed differently, I am not sure if stock will work yet
Oil Temp/Pressure Gauge (Minor rewire, pretty simple)
Oil Tank and Oil Lines (I added the front cooler which is expensive but highly recommended. The computer holder needs to be cut out but the oil tank bolts up)
Rewire the 14 pin connector (Simple; Most are the same except the alternator and tach wires)
Voltage Regulator is Different but plugs into the engine harness
Theres some miscellanious stuff too. I replaced a bunch of gaskets, used a sport muffler, new tunnel lines, fuel pump, etc)

Feel free to message if you have any questions. Its expensive but really pretty simple as far as swaps go.