Current Issue of Excellence 356 Type 4 power

FenderGuy · 09-22-2004, 09:42 AM

Since all this talk about a 912e for myself, I received the current issue of Excellence. There was a 356 with a type 4 engine that was estimated HP at 195. In the issue the engine was described as a 79 (I think) 2.0 bus engine that was turned into a 2.7. In this same issue in the Tech forum. The guy whos writes these articles described some recently new technology in type 4 engine, that he would further revel these technologies in future issues of Excellence. Besides Raby? Who knows of new tricks to get the most HP out of these engines? Plus my thought on the 912e that I get is , I want to turn into a RS look, delate the rear seats, fiberglass duck, and front hood, Still want AC, How hard would it be to get 160 out of the engine?

david c. · 09-22-2004, 09:50 AM

This is the great debate for 914 guys. Is it better to run a low-stress 911 motor in a six conversion or a highly tweaked T4 without the headaches of the conversion. I think there is no "answer" to this and it comes down to what you want. Obviously, a strong 160 horsepower T4 that is meant to be reliable is going to cost some serious lucre to build. Probably more than a decent 3.0 or 3.2 (but maybe not the conversion itself for a teener).

I thought about putting a six into my 12E but decided against it because it would reclass my car into some wild modified class for autocross purposes.

If you want a cheap RS look, you'd be better off finding a solid 911T. In the end you'd have less of a frankenstein and likely it would have more resale value - if that matters to you. Coldbass and I (and others) are way too familiar with the despair that comes with 912E investment versus resale value to steer you in the direction you mentioned above.

FenderGuy · 09-22-2004, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dave cardone
If you want a cheap RS look, you'd be better off finding a solid 911T. In the end you'd have less of a frankenstein and likely it would have more resale value - if that matters to you. Coldbass and I (and others) are way too familiar with the despair that comes with 912E investment versus resale value to steer you in the direction you mentioned above.

I should have said RS look with duck and carrera script only and thats it.

COLDBASS · 10:57 AM

Sqeezin more than 140 (approx) HP is gonna cost you $$$$$.

I am going for the same objective, however I am starting with 911s (see sig, picking up the '71 on Thursday morning)...my biggest headache is trying to determine which motor config I want in either 911. That is, a 3.6, 3.8 sounds tempting especially now that I was told that there is a 4.0 kit for the 3.6 motor...

If you truly want to go the T4 route, then go for broke, get one of Jakes 2270 190+ engines...just the weight savings combined with that HP...well I dont think that many stock SCs or pre SCs are gonna keep up...its just that at the end of the day you will probably have at least $10k in the motor alone.

Be patient, I'll let you and Dave drive my E once its complete, you may be happy with that config and it will be Emissions legal in CA

To answer your question, FAT performance in Orange, CA does T4s, I think that they have been doing them since the early '70s...I bought some parts from them...

FenderGuy · 09-22-2004, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by COLDBASS

Be patient, I'll let you and Dave drive my E once its complete, you may be happy with that config and it will be Emissions legal in CA

Bob whats the details on your car? I think I have asked you before, but ???? I think I would happy with 20 more horses on the stock engine. I know what to expect from the stock engine since I have owned one.

COLDBASS · 09-22-2004, 11:28 AM

I'm kinda hesitant to post a guesstimate on the HP or Torque.
I dont want to get blasted/flamed. I do plan on having it dyno'd...there is another EFI enhancement that will be performed. I cant go into detail as my tuner has spent some time and effort on this...this guy really knows his *****, I am surprised that others have performed the same tricks before...

I should have my CW crank and goodies back this week...

david c. · 09-22-2004, 11:35 AM

It will be fun to compare new technology with old technology when Bob and I drive each other's cars. My car *should* be smog exempt on Jan 1 and I will have it out here in the spring. I'm hoping for 110hp with ported/polished heads, Euro P/C's, about a 9.1:1 CR and 40mm Dells, Permatune ignition and custom curved dizzy.

FenderGuy · 09-22-2004, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by COLDBASS
I'm kinda hesitant to post a guesstimate on the HP or Torque.
I dont want to get blasted/flamed. I do plan on having it dyno'd...there is another EFI enhancement that will be performed. I cant go into detail as my tuner has spent some time and effort on this...this guy really knows his *****, I am surprised that others have performed the same tricks before...

I should have my CW crank and goodies back this week...

Bob what about $$$ on it so far? I get flamed all the time for this and that, mostly on how long its taking me to get a 911. I could care less, I am taking my time to find something I want and not crap.

FenderGuy · 09-22-2004, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dave cardone
It will be fun to compare new technology with old technology when Bob and I drive each other's cars. My car *should* be smog exempt on Jan 1 and I will have it out here in the spring. I'm hoping for 110hp with ported/polished heads, Euro P/C's, about a 9.1:1 CR and 40mm Dells, Permatune ignition and custom curved dizzy.

110 sounds good, sounds like a figure of the late 60s and early 70s 911's mostly the 911T's

david c. · 09-22-2004, 12:13 PM

Yeah, I'd be happy as pie with 110 given the constraints on my Solo II classification. I can't increase displacement or swap cams. This kills a 2056 conversion or a more efficient cam. Jake and all the T4 experts hate the stock cam but my hands are tied if I want to race in FSP.

COLDBASS · 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FenderGuy
Bob what about $$$ on it so far? I get flamed all the time for this and that, mostly on how long its taking me to get a 911. I could care less, I am taking my time to find something I want and not crap.

Zeke estimated about 130 HP with my config, w/lots of torque...
Good assesment...

Well the only parts that I am purchasing are

CW Crank
Rods
Case
Bearings
Oil Pump

My JEs (pistons) survived and will be reused. The head were clean up a little. Keep in mind that the motor had 10k on it...

There will be labor for the EFI and reassemble though...probably $1k in parts when its complete...

FenderGuy · 09-22-2004, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by COLDBASS
Zeke estimated about 130 HP with my config, w/lots of torque...
Good assesment...

Well the only parts that I am purchasing are

CW Crank
Rods
Case
Bearings
Oil Pump

My JEs (pistons) survived and will be reused. The head were clean up a little. Keep in mind that the motor had 10k on it...

There will be labor for the EFI and reassemble though...probably $1k in parts when its complete...

130? why would you get flamed for that? is that how many HP you have for $1k in parts thats not bad, but how much for the labor?

COLDBASS · 03:04 PM

No, I'll get flamed for posting What I think my real final figures will be...

ultimately, a dyno printout will tell the final story. That L-Jet is gonna be at its very limit...

$1k aint bad, but keep in mind that I am reusing quite a few parts from the last rebuild. The heads had alot of work performed. The pistons were JE forged (when I originally bought them I was told that they would last a few rebuilds).

Not sure what the labor is going to be this time around...Rich will be maintaining/building all 4 of my Porsches and 1 BMW. so, if you think about it, its lilke having 5 separate clients. I get a very fair price up front, in turn I dont haggle. It balances out. He is very honest thats why I settled there...now if I could only get him to work on my Ford

I'll be posting progress pics...

FenderGuy · 09-22-2004, 03:03 PM

Thanks Bob

Griznant · Griznant's Garage

I've got a Raby-spec and balanced 2056 in my '69. This thing is a friggin' screamer (for 6500rpm), and has been enough to impress even die-hard muscle car guys. It is quick, very streetable, and has been as reliable as a stone. No complaints here.

That said, it was not cheap. I have about $4000 in it, and I built it myself. The money is in the headwork and cam/lifters (ceramics). I would do the conversion again in a heartbeat.

I have a friend with a 2270 in his 914, and it is crazy-fast. He is looking at selling the engine because it is way more tempermental than the 2056 in mine. He does have me on torque and rpm though (over 7000rpm). It is very fast, and he has all the *good* parts in it as well.

Both engines can be built to be very stout, no doubt, but you are going to have to research and ante up for the good parts. Then again, both engines can be complete turds if you cut corners. I drove a stock-cammed 2056 that was easily the biggest slug ever. I couldn't believe it was the same size as mine, and it was even running fresh 2.0L 914 heads and dual 40 Webers (I've got 44s).

Did I mention that even with over 9:1 compression, my engine runs cooler than a stocker? That's heads and cam folks. Gotta go with the right combo. I don't think the stock cam works in any combo that doesn't involve a turbo.

Later,

G

914Ghost · 09-23-2004, 08:35 AM

The TYPE 4 is waaaay under-rated.
If I EVER got a 912 or 356 that had no engine - I'd go type 4 without a second thought.
I have the original engine in my 68' and STILL want to convert.
-Bob O

david c. · 09-23-2004, 08:37 AM

I was mad about having to use the stock cam. It really sucks from all that I've read but I have no option if I want to stay in that class. Jake says it runs hotter because it was designed not for power but rather so that the engine heats up quickly.

FenderGuy · 09-23-2004, 08:58 AM

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=91065 135HP for $2,200?

david c. · 09-23-2004, 09:10 AM

Well, you'll still have to spend $500 for a core set of heads and another pile to have the heads done right.

Griznant · Griznant's Garage

Straight up head-work on the 1.7 heads I started with was $850. That included flycutting, opening for larger cylinders, opening for 44x36 valves, stainless valves and installation, HD springs, Chromoly-exhaust studs, and full port and polish. That was from Headflowmasters, and the work was fantastic.

It did NOT include:
911 swivel feet adjusters
Modifying the 1.7L rockers for said adjusters
Solid rocker spacers
Chromoly 8mm rocker studs
Rocker shim kit

All told, there is over $1000 in those heads, but they flow like mad, and make big power. Jake estimates my combo (he spec'd it, but I built it and no dyno runs were made) at between 120-140hp. I will pick up more when I switch to the Mallory distributor, and if I go with actual headers instead of my home-grown exhaust.

This thing cranks. I've had it screaming at 120mph with my old gears, and with the new gears I can probably pull well beyond that. It hit 120mph like nothing flat, and would pulll from there, but I decided that was plenty fast and I laid off.

You CAN build these for big power, and still be reliable as anything. There is something about a 4-cylinder 912 that can power slide and has traction problems in 1st gear that is just cool.

Later,

G