Tell me a little about the 912E

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 05:17 AM

Hi all. I'm fairly new to the forums, been spending some time asking questions over in the 911 forum as I'm considering moving to a 911. However, I've also secretly been considering the purchase 912E if I happen to find one I like at the right price. I'm not considering the older 912s, because even though they are lovely, they are completely un-galvanized. As a long time Beetle owner, I'm simply sick and tired of having cars that rust easily. I love the air-cooled designs though, and the rear engine. Hence my move towards the 911SC or Carrera or maybe, just maybe, the 912E. I like the idea of a "daily driver" which is both sporty and fuel efficient. It also has a nice classic look.

So, a few quick questions. Is the 912E series really galvanized? I've heard there is some debate over this. How much of my lifetime of VW Beetle experience will translate to the 912's engine? Suspension-wise, does the 912E have the same feel as the 911, or is it substantially different? I also understand that some parts on the 912E (fuel system?) can be extremely difficult to find. How big of a hurdle would parts availability be for someone who wants to use this as a true daily-driver? I'll be putting 10k a year on it for sure, possibly more. Does the engine have "911" (3.0 & 3.2) longevity, or does it have VW Beetle longevity? Let's face it, those old VW engines are great in their way, but they run hot, and no matter how tenderly you love and care for them, they are pretty much worn out by 120k (and often much earlier). Finally, how is the heating and AC system? Comparable to the same-era 911?

That's considerably more questions than I intended to ask, sorry! But any input from 912E owners (or anyone that knows the 912 series) would be great. I've done a fair amount of reading, but there are some things which remain unclear, or which I would feel better hearing clarified by someone who "really knows" the topic.

Edit: Pretty Please?

Matt Monson · 10-11-2009, 08:34 AM

A beetle engine is a poor comparison to the 912e. The 912 uses a type IV variation, that IIRC was orginally used in the 411 VW and then subsequently in the buses. It's also the stock engine in the 914 Porsches. They are quite durable little engines and there's a lot of little things you can do to them to increase power without significantly impacting fuel economy.

There are guys around here who report 30+mpgs out of them on their daily drivers. Try getting that out of any 2.7l or 3.0l 911 engine!!!

They do drive like a 911 and all the other mechanicals and trim are pretty much the same though there are a few unique things.

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

A beetle engine is a poor comparison to the 912e. The 912 uses a type IV variation, that IIRC was orginally used in the 411 VW and then subsequently in the buses. It's also the stock engine in the 914 Porsches. They are quite durable little engines and there's a lot of little things you can do to them to increase power without significantly impacting fuel economy.

There are guys around here who report 30+mpgs out of them on their daily drivers. Try getting that out of any 2.7l or 3.0l 911 engine!!!

They do drive like a 911 and all the other mechanicals and trim are pretty much the same though there are a few unique things.

Thanks Matt, I really appreciate the feedback on this. I've never been a bus owner, or even a late-model Beetle owner. Mostly I'm familiar with the stuff from the late 60's and very early 70s, the original 1600sp and 1600dp VW motors. I suppose I should start reading-up on the 914s to learn more about this engine. Information on the 912E is very difficult to find (for understandable reasons). The 914 is a car I've never had any interest in (engine too far forward, body too boxy

, so I know almost nothing about them.

Any feedback about my other questions? Especially the "galvanized-or-not" question, or more generally the rust-proneness (is that a word?) of the 912E? The "Illustrated Porsche Buyer's Guide" clearly states that the 912E "has the same galvanized body of the 911". But I'm sure I've read elsewhere that this may not truly be the case? That's a very important issue for me.

Dave L. · 10-11-2009, 11:49 AM

First things first- this is not a cheap car. It is a MY 1976 911S with a detuned 914 2.0 litre engine and some unique adaptation (think solid disc rotors all round and an expensive exhaust system) which is distinct from all other Porsche cars. To buy, they're reasonable ($7,000 - $15,000 for a good to excellent example), pay more for near-perfect or exceptionally lo-mileage examples with interesting options. (Sunroof, largely ineffectual AC as per 911, and rare LSD (40% lockup), rear sway bar, sports steering wheel, optional 14" Fuchs wheels, etc.) Running expenses are reasonable, but proper engine rebuilds increasing BHP beyond original output can get costly (consider $8-$15,000 from the very best builders.) Some parts are rare and expensive especially compared to most VW parts, but NONE are unobtainable and most are commonly and easily sourced. Model Year 1976, J-series: "As of the autumn of 1975, all Porsche cars had hot-dip galvanized body panels and were assembled using the most modern corrosion protection methods. All structural components were made with galvanized Theissen steel. In Europe the cars warranted a six-year rust-through guarantee (a first for Porsche). For MY76 Porsche offered the 912E coupe for the American market, base-priced at $10,845. " (Porsche Data Book, a definitive reference, etc.) Well, other references, including "Upfixin' Der Porsche" agree, that full galvanization began in fall 1975, at about the same time as the 912E began production. In fact Porsche 911 floorpans had been galvanized for years before this, and later cars (early 1975) are reputed to have been galvanized up to the roof panel (which was not galvanized.) In any case, absent improperly repaired crash damage, or inconsiderate re-painting the 1976 MY cars are exceptionally robust and can readily be found in genuinely "rust free" condition. The car is perfectly suitable for use as a daily driver. It is long-legged, returns good mileage and sports a large 80-litre fuel tank. It is modest in its power to weight ratio, but handles very well. It runs reliably if properly maintained and if something odd crops up, aftermarket and enthusiast assistance is readily available. Here are a few pics of mine- one of which I've run for the past 13 or so years. Now passing 165,000 miles, it is still very presentable. But is has been exceptionally well maintained, and thus could be driven coast-to-coast any day, any season. Buy the best you can afford, invest in the proper maintenance and refurbishment and enjoy your Porsche commute! I used to commute the brown one in Memphis about 60-miles a day back in the 90's and totally enjoyed the idea of climbing into my car for a short blast twice a day! R/Dave L.

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 10-11-2009, 07:11 PM

Thanks again. This is great info. Dave, that looks like a beautifully maintained 912!

vwbeck · 10-11-2009, 08:56 PM

In the Autumn of 1975 the 912E, internally designated at the factory as the Type 923, became the companion to the 911S. Primarily sold in North America, rising fuel prices and lowered U.S. speed limits helped make the 912E a practical model. Production of the 914/4 had just ended, and the water-cooled four-cylinder 924s had not yet arrived. The 912E was powered by the 2.0 liter fuel-injected 914-derived engine, and was offered in the 911 coupe coupe body style.

Options included electric sunroof, limited slip, and air conditioning. With its 21 U.S. gallon fuel tank and fuel-efficient engine, the 912E's driving range may be the best of any Porsche ever made, 600+ miles. the 912E became available for purchase. By the end of 912E production, the factory had produced 2092, delivered primarily to North America. The 2099th and final 912E constructed also became the last air-cooled four-cylinder car produced by Porsche.

Check out 912 Registry :: Welcome! for more info. on 912E's
They are a great car.

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 01:17 PM

Hey again. Thanks for the feedback and for taking the time to post your pics. Great looking cars. I've been doing more research, and have a question regarding tires. The optional wheel size on the 912e was 14". But like many older vehicles, the tire designation for the car does not include the sidewall height. The 14" wheels call for a 185/14, but I need to know that stock sidewall height to be able to determine how available tires are for the model. Sounds like a silly question I know, but it is a common problem to be unable to find good modern tires which "look right" on a car. Then you end up either having a shorter sidewall and an "empty wheel arch" look, or you end up spending tons on Vedersteins (which you don't want to rip apart at an autocross), or you have to very carefully lower your car to look correct on smaller tires, or you have to get new wheels and lose the stock look, or..... Well, you get the idea. I'm sensitive to this because I tend to be very much a "stock look" car guy. I really prefer a stock-look car as much as possible. (I spent huge amounts of time getting my '68 Beetle setup properly to "look stock" but actually be running on modern sized tires. Had to track down 5.5" stock-look steel wheels, lowered the whole car just the exact right amount, etc. Just so I could keep that stock look but use commonly available tires (in this case Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS Pole Positions - 185/65/15 front and 195/65/15 rear).

Sorry, I tend to be long-winded. Anyway, what tire size is appropriate, in modern terms?

185/60/14? 185/70/14? Something else?

If any of you are also VW guys, and want to see the car, it is here (a little site I threw together for a local VW club, trying to get more beetle people interested in autocross):

http://www.thatmacguy.com/bug/

Edit: Adding another question: Does the 912e use the same heat-exchangers as the 914? I'm also researching general part availability, just to have an idea what I might be getting myself into, in terms of part availability of commonly needed items. It is very, very hard to find much out there which is specific to the 912e.

hcariss · hcariss's Garage

HE's are rarer than hens teeth but not impossible to find, a pair recently on ebay reached around 1.5K without hitting reserve ...
Tires / wheels: I realize you want stock but IMO 15x6 Fuchs absolutely transform the 912E drive, and also fill up the wheel well more which again IMO just looks better.
If you can drive a car with the stock 14.5 and then try a car with the 15x6, its worth the investment to find a set. First pic is with 15x6 Fuchs , second is with 14.5 original Fuchs

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 10-22-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcariss

HE's are rarer than hens teeth but not impossible to find, a pair recently on ebay reached around 1.5K without hitting reserve ...
Tires / wheels: I realize you want stock but IMO 15x6 Fuchs absolutely transform the 912E drive, and also fill up the wheel well more which again IMO just looks better.
If you can drive a car with the stock 14.5 and then try a car with the 15x6, its worth the investment to find a set. First pic is with 15x6 Fuchs , second is with 14.5 original Fuchs

Yeah, that is certainly a reasonable solution, staying close to a stock look without being technically stock. I'm just fine with that. Every classic car I've owned has been a car I wanted to drive, so practicality is also important. I've repeatedly searched for "Fuchs" on Pelican parts, to see if reproductions are available, but either Pelican's search engine is especially poor, or they aren't currently available (or, I'm an idiot. Can't rule that out I guess.)

It looks like there are a LOT of parts for the 912e which are very difficult or impossible to find. That is a bit worrying. Just finding information about it has been a real chore.

Absolutely GREAT looking car by the way, it looks fantastic in brown.

Dave L. · 10-22-2009, 04:47 PM

Just so you know I'm not guessing here- I have kept an early series 912 and a couple of E's, amongst other Porsches (for my sins!) I will admit to having been an inveterate collector of 912E spares over the past decade or so, and keep an eye open for things like NOS original equipment mufflers (bought one for $290 unused/original sticker if I recall the price off ebay), I also keep a spare Stebro, a Bursch which was a take-off, and some Heat Exchanger pipes as well as an AI exhaust system, and the 'hens teeth' factory Heat Exchangers (hmmm...I think it was about $250 or so for the pair good-used)...Fuchs? I keep a set of 14's, a set of 15x6, some ATS which are 15x6 (spares) and many 16" Fuchs which are my favorites for the E I drive the most (but really belong on the 911SC. Maintenance parts and consumables are never an issue- but I do have a spare throttle cable, clutch cable, two EFI harnesses, some brains, thermal reactors, rubber boots and a bunch of other stuff- because if you see it, common sense says that for model-unique parts you buy it just in case! You ought to be able to source just about anything you need- if not from ebay, pelican, **********, or The Samba then from dismantling yards several of which have E's in the pile somewhere. Some of us foolish 912BBS members have even been known to give stuff away (or put it on extended kinda free loan!) You get the idea. It's a rare car. Some of the parts are tough to collect or somewhat pricey. But there are good deals cropping up over the years too. Good luck with your decision! BTW, I like 15x7 ATS Cookie Cutters (as on the bronze car) because they're cheap, look neat, and take a nice 205/65/15 MXV tire that looks somewhat appropriate! R/Dave L.

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 10-25-2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave L.

15x7 ATS Cookie Cutters (as on the bronze car) because they're cheap, look neat, and take a nice 205/65/15 MXV tire that looks somewhat appropriate!

Wow, another stunning looking car. I do like the "Cookie Cutter" wheels, they look nice on the car. If I remember correctly those are also available in different finishes?

But back to an important question which hasn't yet been answered:

Does anyone know what the "stock" tire size should be in modern terms (for either the 15" or 14" wheels)? If I get one size I can then use an online tires-size calculator to workout what tires are available at various sizes.

Jaems · 10-25-2009, 12:05 PM

185/70/15 was the original factory stock size for the 74-77 911. The 912E should be the same.

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 10-25-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaems

185/70/15 was the original factory stock size for the 74-77 911. The 912E should be the same.

Perfect. That'll allow me to go out and find out what's available in close-to-stock sizes. Thanks.

Dave L. · 10-25-2009, 03:32 PM

Don't forget the 912E stock wheel was a 15 by 6 inch steel wheel- and that the Fuchs option was a 14-incher. I think the original steelies came with 165R15's and the Fuchs was a 185R14. Or is this because you intend to fit 15-inch Fuchs vice the original size and I'm missing something and just being STOOPID?! (Hmm...good chance of this!) Whatever! It'll look very nice, I'm sure. Some pics of #979 on OE 14-inch Fuchs with a big ol Michelin tire, and lastly the ATS 15's wearing 205/65 rubber. R/Dave L.

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 10-25-2009, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave L.

I think the original steelies came with 165R15's and the Fuchs was a 185R14. Or is this because you intend to fit 15-inch Fuchs vice the original size and I'm missing something and just being STOOPID?! (Hmm...good chance of this!) Whatever! It'll look very nice, I'm sure. Some pics of #979 on OE 14-inch Fuchs with a big ol Michelin tire, and lastly the ATS 15's wearing 205/65 rubber.

No, not being stoopid.

I just really wanted to know this so I knew what size tires "looked right" on the car and, more importantly, which sizes will get me close to the correct stock rolling diameter. This is really the critical measurement as it dictates how accurate your speedometer is, how the tires look on the car, and how close your shifting points are to what the manufacturer intended. I'm just one of those obsessively nitpicky people. Also, I really don't like the "small tire" look, or the "overly sized boy-racer" look. I don't mean I'm looking for 100% stock size tires, but tires which are within a relatively small range of stock usually look best (IMHO).

Generally, this lets me know if good modern performance tires are available in sizes appropriate to the car, on both the 14" and 15" wheels. Once I had a single correct stock size, I was able to spend a couple hours with a tire-size-calculator and figure out what tires are currently available (there are a lot of reasonably priced tires available at close to stock rolling diameters).

Thanks for all the pics.

Dave L. · 10-25-2009, 05:10 PM

Being particular is just fine! BTW, I forgot to point out that the pics of #979 wearing the 14-inch Fuchs and biggish 205-70-14 XWX's also feature the original ride height of the car, which you may have noted is significantly higher than the Euro models of the same year. I have had the car lowered from stock height because even with 15-inch wheels and 205-65 tires the wells seemed somewhat empty. This is a common change, so be sure to have yours raised to US Spec if it has already been lowered! (I mean if you want original ride characteristics/dynamics, etc.) In any case if its lowered to Euro ride height those 14's or 15's with higher profile tires might be a snug fit! Have fun! Can't wait to see pics of your car! R/Dave L.

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 10-26-2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave L.

Being particular is just fine! BTW, I forgot to point out that the pics of #979 wearing the 14-inch Fuchs and biggish 205-70-14 XWX's also feature the original ride height of the car, which you may have noted is significantly higher than the Euro models of the same year. I have had the car lowered from stock height because even with 15-inch wheels and 205-65 tires the wells seemed somewhat empty. This is a common change, so be sure to have yours raised to US Spec if it has already been lowered! (I mean if you want original ride characteristics/dynamics, etc.) In any case if its lowered to Euro ride height those 14's or 15's with higher profile tires might be a snug fit! Have fun! Can't wait to see pics of your car! R/Dave L.

I do actually prefer the North American ride height on these cars. As I've mentioned, I'm very much into driving any classic car I own. Last thing I want is to have to constantly worry about scraping on driveway aprons, etc.

Just out of curiosity, what is your take on staggered tires sizes? Do any of you run wider tires on the rear of your 912e? How is the weight balance compared to the 911s? Is it only slightly more neutral, or is it MUCH more neutral? I'm very comfortable with rear-engine weight balance. I like a car which understeers mildly on-throttle and then turns in nicely off-throttle. When I autocross the 1980 911sc which is owned by a family member, it is absolutely spot-on exactly the way I like a car to handle.

I realize the 912 has a more neutral balance than the 911. For this reason are staggered tires not recommended? My feeling is that I should not stagger tires. But, then again, I DO have staggered tires on my autocross Beetle and on that 911 I occasionally get to play in.

Here is an autocross video I put together trying to help get my local VW club members interested in autocross. It describes the way I like a car to handle (and has a close "oops" moment when I lift off too much in one fairly tight sweeper):

Autocross 1

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 10-28-2009, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave L.

Have fun! Can't wait to see pics of your car! R/Dave L.

OK, well, as you all probably guessed, I did have a specific 912e in mind when I started spamming this forum with all my questions. I didn't want to jinx anything however, and it seems that every time I start talking to anyone about "the car I'm thinking about buying", something happens and I don't end up getting it. I guess we all have our little superstitions.

So, as of yesterday, I am the proud owner of a VERY ROUGH 912e project car. This isn't where I started my quest, but I don't have time to go into that now. I'll be on this forum a LOT now I expect. Much of this car doesn't work, or doesn't work well. There are rust issues to take care of also. But, it was extremely affordable (I feel I paid the appropriate amount for the car). It runs and drives and I was able to drive it home without problem (about 130 miles). A couple of pics for now, and then I'll be back soon to probably start a new thread about how I came to buy this car etc:

Dave L. · 10-28-2009, 03:51 PM

Looks pretty nice-n-shiny and sitting up 'way up high and proud' (just as the factory intended!) Have fun with your E, and keep us posted with lots-o-pics, R/Dave L.

Mr_SpongeWorthy · 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave L.

Looks pretty nice-n-shiny and sitting up 'way up high and proud' (just as the factory intended!) Have fun with your E, and keep us posted with lots-o-pics, R/Dave L.

I'm having fun with it already. Fixed my first very first thing today (a loose electrical connection, so pretty simple stuff for now.) I'm just trying to get acquainted with the car. There are a LOT of things which just don't work, but a lot of stuff seems pretty decent also. I'm fairly sure I've got a cracked exhaust manifold, and the heat-exchangers are a mess. I don't know if they can be salvaged or not. Most of the car is solid, but there are a couple areas with considerable rust damage (front bumper mounting area, I'll post pics sometime soon). It also has the silly 14" FUCHS wheels (why did Porsche do that? Stupid wheel size!).

For now, I'm just going to play with it and drive it for the few weeks we have remaining in Michigan before snow flies. Over winter I'll get to work on some of it, but I'm not going to try to restore this car to the level of my Beetle. I'm thinking "make it a solid daily driver and vintage autocross car and take good care of it, but don't obsess." I'll see how far I get with that.

If successful it will be the first (vintage) car I've owned which I haven't obsessed endlessly over.

I'll start another thread about the car soon, especially as I already have a couple of (hopefully simple) questions.

And a very heartfelt thanks again to everyone here who was willing to answer questions here. It was so helpful. I was in the middle of a hunt for a 911, and had test driven a number of them and found that in each case I felt the seller was asking considerably more than the car was worth. Then I happened upon a post for this 912e (here on the Pelican forums), which was only a bit over 2 hours from where I live. As a long-time VW owner, I always liked the original 912 series a lot (except the rust, see the first post), and had considered the 912e, but really didn't expect to run across one easily. So suddenly I needed to get a lot more information as quickly as possible.