Hmmm... Maybe an aluminum box to isolate the hot stuff from the rest of the engine bay?

Just thinkin' out loud.

--DD

I will be using water injection, it works like an intercooler. I'm not going to get into the workings of water injection, but it will help the sytem run slightly cooler while decreasing detonation. It is really quite ingenious, I truly should be running both water injection and an intercooler, but this car will be a weekend toy, it will not see track use or any really bad thrashing....sure!!:D Here is a link that explains the injection system: http://www.510again.com/articles/watering/watering.html

Randy

I think your missing the point. Water injection will cool the intake charge, however, if it is done on the intake side of the turbo I doubt it will have any affect. An innercooler would also do the same, however, you will have to duct the hot charge from the cooler away from the engine bay. Having the Turbo in the engine bay is like running without spark plug boots times 100...The cooling fan will suck air that is heated by the turbo, not to mention the heated intake charge.

I am sure it will work. You will get 150 hp. you will get lots of fun...but the heat will be the down fall of the application. Oil from the turbo lube will return to the engine...hot, make its way to the oil cooler, which is being cooled with more hot air. It is a viscious loop.

The turbo is essentially an exhaust component. Other than maybe a buick grand nationalor a turbo corvair,yYou would have to look hard to find a production car with Turbo in the engine bay. Check out the rear of an 917 ;)

The kings of aircooled heat management, Stuutgart and Wolfsburg, have produced the template, follow their lead...

Scott

Uh,.....no.
The turbo will not heat up the engine compartment very much at all unless the engine is shut off after spirited run. You may think it would, but trust me on this, It doesn't. BTDT.
having said that, I'm assuming that the exhaust collector, exhaust pipe, and turbo are properly wrapped with isulation. The standard exhaust insulating tape works great on the pipes, and they make a heat shield that's shaped to fit the turbo wonderfully. Turbo city in Orange, ca. sell them and they work well. If the hot stuff is not properly insulated, all bets are off.
Oh, and an intercooler doesn't work very good at all with a pull through system like this one. The fuel and air are already mixed before they go through the turbo. That in itself presents some problems with keeping the fuel atomized at lower velocities as the turbo acts as a centrifuge. Ad into the equation an intercooler where a warm air/fuel charge is cooled down, you're just asking for the fuel to puddle on all those square inches of surface area. That does all kinds of wonderful things like running some cylinders above 16 to one while running others so rich the fuel washes the oil off of the cylinder walls. Not good.

If you want to go intercooled, port fuel injection is about the only show in town. It can be done with other systems but it will be a major PITA getting it ro run well at anything other than WOT.

Oh, one other thing: water injection is a very neat trick, but if you really want to spice it up run a 50/50 mix of water (distilled) and methanol. Who hoo, that will get you way up in the boost range safely. Methonol has fewer BTUs by volume that gas but has mucho more than water. That means it will run cooler but still give some energy to the equation. Also water has a tendency to displace the fuel so at high amounts can actually make the engine run lean (and hotter).
Methanol give a wider cushion and it also acts similarly to a gasoline having an octane range in the 120s. It isn't the same, but that's how it works. Methanol or ethanol will resist pre-combustion and pre-ignition big time, they just don't burn as hot and make as much power.

Eitehr way with water or water/alcohol mix, make darned sure tyou keep an eye on your engine oil. you don't want any of that wet stuff diluting your oil so watch it and change it often, make sure you give it a chance to get up to full operating temperature and get out of the boost completely for a while before you get to your destination and shut the engine off.
BTW the smile you will be wearing the first time the boost puts you into your seat and your engine keeps pulling harder and harder way up past 6500 rpm will not go away easily :-)
Even with a stock cam a 2 liter will pull all the way to the rev limiter and will break or float the valves, but it won't fall off like a choked down stocker will. It feels linear but I havent seen the dyno graph to prove it.
It takes a little discipline to back off in time and save the engine.

Thanks Sam,
I'm glad to hear that you had no problem with heat! It makes me feel a lot better hearing a voice of experience on a setup very similar to mine. I do have tape on the exhaust manifold as you can see, and I have this funky looking super thick thermal covering that goes on the exhast side of the turbo, I'm planning on wrapping the exhaust with tape until it leaves the engine bay area. When I hear you tell me these things about the Turbo it makes me really smile :D . The main reason I started looking at making a turbo was the comment that someone made about you can't turbo a 914, whether in jest or not it made me think that it would be a unique way to make the 914 come alive!

I'll have to look into the methanol thing, that would be interesting. I'll look into it after I get everything dialed in. Did you run any type of head temp sensor. Also did you run your oil supply line out of the oil pressure sensor location. Did you have any problems with the carb to turbo intake freezing or no pr-heating enough. I have ton of questions, but will refrain from taking up forum space, if you don't mind I'll email you! OBTW I will be putting this car on a DYNO when I'm done! We are planning a local DYNO day at my local Turbo shop, I'm hoping to get Tom Perso and Grant involved.

Thanks again Sammy,
Randy

re: Dyno Day.

I'll be there, trust me. I'd be curious to see what kind of power I'm throwing to the ground with my 2270.

Should be good times!

Later,
Tom

I don't know, it could be a blessing or a curse. I'd like to think that I'm making loads of power, and be ignorant of the truth, as opposed to finding out I barely make more than stock after spending big $$$.

It probably won't be that bad, but our lofty ideas can often be shattered.

Still, I'll be there with the Red Baron! (well, it's sort of a bare metal gray right now)

Later,

G

Thanks for all that great info Sam, all I've ever known is a modern tubo setup not one running on carbe. Even though I'm not making a turbo myself, it's always cool to learn stuff :cool:

Nathan

Any time Sammy G (or anyone who knows him!) says "You can't turbo a 914", it's a joke. That was the conventional wisdom for years (yes, perpetuated in part by me!). Then Sammy put one together. And then Evill Ed. And then EJM. And then Oerdith. (Jeff, grasshopper, are you still lurking?)

And then, of course, European Car in all their wis-dumb printed a "tech answer" that you cannot turbocharge a 914. When the guy who bought Sammy's car wrote in to mention that it could be done and has been done, they pooh-poohed it as "stone-age and primitive" and somehow not worthy of any consideration. Uhhh, yeah. :rolleyes: I guess a magazine that specializes in ooohing and aaahing over near-stock cars with big rims and bodykits is not the best source of what "can" and "cannot" be done...

I'm still waiting on reliability data for the turrbo setups. None have fared that well so far. Evill Ed lost two motors (the first was tired when he turbo'd it; the second appeared to be a problem in assembling the motor that killed it quickly) so far. Sammy's car was sold and then the engine and turbo sold separately. I don't know how well EJM's car is faring, but it is the most sophisticated setup of the lot. And Oerdith's tired old 2.0 motor had a failure as well. (Might have been a failure to keep the boost at reasonable levels....)

It'll be interesting when everyone gets enough miles on their turbos to see how they fare in the long term.

--DD

Dave, you car is normally aspirated, what's your excuse? :)

Not knocking Sammy or anyone else running a carb'd turbo car, but yes, that is stone age, so I can understand EC's comment to some degree.

For those that insist :) on using carbs and turbo's together, here are a few lists that might be of some interest:

Blow Thru Turbo Group

and

Drawthru Turbo Group

Neat info and shows how resourceful some people can be.

I bought the book that the moderator wrote from these two forums.....some pretty cool ideas, some practical, some not, but they all work.

Mike

My system was very much like the system in the pictures above and I loved it for it's simplicity. I wanted to drive it and not tinker with it. After I put the engine together and bolted up the turbo it was running about 12 hours later. I fine tuned it a little here and there for a total of maybe 8 hours, after that I just drove it. I even took it to my first AX in an Diego before the rings had a chance to seat ;-)

At the time I didn't know squat about electronic fuel injection but I did know carbs and that's what I went with, go with what you know.
I like the KISS priciple, less things to go wrong. Stone age is fine with me.

BUT.....................the next turbo project I build with be CIS, no bout a doubt it :-)
CIS gets a bad rap but I absolutely love it now that I understand it more.

As far as reliability: My engine had at least a zillion miles on it when I bolted up the turbo. All I did was freshen the heads and re-ring. The bottom end was tired and I never managed to hurt it.
Jeff's engine was way more tired that mine, AFAIK the only problem he had was with an aftermarket ignition system constantly failing, and he had some broken exhaust studs that caused some big leaks under boost. It was basically a "mule" motor just for developmental work, he was going to rebuild it after he got the fuel system dialed in but then he got side tracked.

My guess is that as long as you control the temperatures and the rpms the engine will last many, many years UNLESS you get the boost bug and crank it up farther than you should.
Boost is way more addicting than crack, a little more is never enough :-)
I figure on a stock motor 5 psi is the sweet spot with no problems at all. 7 psi is great, but will make the engine run a little hotter, time for an aftermarket oil cooler.
9 psi screams but will probably shorten the life of the engine a little (not a lot), oil cooler is manditory as is synthetic oil.
Anything above that I don't know. I had mine to 11 psi a couple of times and the engine didn't like it. It didn't really complain, I just sensed that is was very close to the edge.

There was that one time when I was tinkering with the waste gate and got carried away.............................................. ..................
.....................
The boost gauge pegged instantly(it only went up to 1 bar) as soon as I gave it gas in first. The engine over revved faster than i could lift my foot, white smoke was boiling off the rear tires and i had this really ugly noise rattling around in my head that could only be one thing, major pinging. I got out of it fast enough to keep from hurting the motor, I never even tried to go big boost again after that.

That's what cracks me up about the guy that had this system before, he ran it at 13 pound consistently! Do you think that was the reason that his motor crapped out and he was rebuilding it? He ran an external cooler and had the water injection to avoid detonation, I immediatly dialed it back down to the stock wastegate setup, which should be between 6 and 8 pounds. He had a 2056 and had the carb all dialed in, I hope to bolt it on and at least have it run without major tweaking, Once I get the cam broken in and the rings seated then I'll play! :D It may all blow up in my face, but thats a chance I'm willing to take! I will have it on a chassis Dyno in June.

Randy

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/turboside1.jpg

Dave, your last post is a little off base. You may have some of this confused with another person. I have not had reliability issues with my engines. The 1st turbo, a 1.7L, began making a very loud metallic rattle, I thought it was a bad cam, but it wasn't. Upon tear down, that engine looked and mic'ed out perfect. There was no evidence of damage from the turbo. The pistons and rings were perfect, no signs of leaks at the heads, bearings, valves and chambers perfect.

I then built the current engine, a 2.0L. I never had a problem with this engine during or after assembly. This engine runs very strong with the turbo and 10-psi boost pressures.

However, this engine made the same exact loud metalic rattle as the 1.7L did. The only reused part of the engine was the case, so this problem really bothered me. I finally found the culprit to be the exhaust pipe from the waste gate was rubbing against the sheet metal on the rear of the engine and hitting the trunk floor area. This was the cause of the noise, which was louder and worse under certain throttle conditions. I have since reshaped the pipe and completely eliminated any noises.

The bottom line is, all the noise, from both engines, was from the waste gate exhaust pipe. The 1.7l was torn down for no good reason. As a matter of fact I am going to freshen and re-assemble that engine.

As for intercooling, I started with a quality H20 injection system that worked very well at suppressing detonation. I then tried an air to air intercooler with less then impressive results. There just isn't enough air flow through the cooler in the engine compartment. I am now back to H20 injection. An air to water charge cooler would be the ideal way to go, and that is whats next on my list.

As for engine compartment heat from the turbo, mine is not a problem since the turbo is mounted so far away from the heads and manifolds. I run a thermally wrapped pipe into the engine compartment to the turbo, which does not get that hot. Typically when the turbo is mounted to the exhaust manifold, as in a factory set up, the housing absorbs tremendous heat. Remote location of the turbo reduces this. I also have no rain tray on my engine lid. There are thermal covers available for the turbo housing to help reduce heat in the engine compartment if you wanted one.

Type 4's can be easily turbo charged if you have a sound engine to begine with, run realistic boost levels(~6-8 psi), have good oil cooling (meaning a front mounted oil cooler) and proper ignition timing/retard.

In my experience all the "you can't do that" , "the heads will leak", "it'll blow up" "it'll give you acne" etc.. is pure Bullsh#t.

Anything can be done if it is done properly.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Ed

Cracks you up? What a nice guy you are, that pretty much seems like a slap in the face, questioning his reasoning for running it the way he did......

13psi is not the same from motor to motor...nor is it the same location to location............that is a bad assumption to make and could be costly if you tried to duplicate the same boost levels (which it sounds like you are not doing)........he might have been able to run 13psi all the time and the motor crapping out could have been from other reasons (poor carb tuning, bad timing or too advanced timing while under boost)


an accurate compression ratio measurement should be done to know what your baseline static compression is....do you know if the PO had been running flat top pistons, dished, or what his compression is/was???

You say he had the carb dialed in....is this a fact backed with real numbers or just from him saying "yea it runs better now that I've turned this little screw"

Sorry, Ed! I thought that the engine you had at the ECR (you were telling us it had a "bad cam") was a 2.0 that you had built to replace your 1.7 when that got too tired.

I'd still love to hear a good indicator of longevity of a boosted 914 engine! So far, either the motors have been very tired to start with, or people have torn them down for various reasons. I don't know of any so far that has run a long time.

The main point I was trying to make (sorry if I got caught up in it) is that there isn't any basis, positive or negative, to judge how the boosted 914s live in the long-term. Yet.

--DD

Agreed, there are no real data bases for turbocharged type 4's yet.

Based on my experiences and torn down engine inspections, a well designed system and properly built engine should last quite a long time. Boost levels and type of driving will be big factors in longeveity. Considering that a boosted engine will run most of the time off boost, it should age and wear similarly to a n/a engine. If it is a turboed stock type 4, it should age similarly to a stock n/a type 4. Again the levels of boost and rpm ranges will be a factor. Speaking of rpm, you will typically run lower rpm levels with a boosted engine, usually stock or close to stock redlines. Hi rpms cause extreme stresses on engine internals as well as heat.

A turbocharged engine will see less stress in most situations then a big bore or hi rpm engine, so a longer service life can be expected. Time will tell.

Ed

Mike,
I love electronic media (read forums, email)...! No voice inflection or tone is ever transmitted thru the wire. It seems I said something to upset you! As a matter of fact I have talked quite extensively to the previous owner of this system (and still do) and he admitted himself that the high boost was probably the cause of the his motor failure. Since he was running a 2056 cc type IV motor that started life as a stock 2.0, the only difference is him running a slightly different cam, our motor should be very similar. My point was, it cracked me up that he couldn't stop himself from cranking it up, it IS like crack...you want more. As for the carb, he and I talked a lot about the differnt jetting options he tried, case in point he sent a bag full of jets with the system. I guess if thats a slap in the face then there is a whole lot of face slapping going on in this forum. As usual I take everything in these forums with a grain of salt, it is what it is, a place to share information about something that we all have in common...914's.

Ed,
I understand that you are running fuel injection with your Turbo? What type and are you happy with it?

Thanks,
Randy

I am running CIS injection and I love it. CIS is entirely underrated in my opinion.

Check out the link below for info about my 914.

http://community.webshots.com/album/56139700KTKzDo

Ed

long night....I guess I was a little grumpy this morning :)

I would like to know the compressions that people are running to have a good baseline of what is working and how well...

I hope to measure my motor this weekend to get an accurate reading of my static compression and then decide if I'll be running the .06 thk copper gaskets or the .09 gaskets between the head and the cylinders.