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cary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sherwood, Oregon
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Won't Start

Well I've left my other car alone. Waiting for a new TPS.

So I decided to put the spare engine from my project car into my 73 2.0L.

Engine went in easy. But she won't start.
Everything seems to be right. I did the "Automotive 101" list from the Haynes manual.

1. Points open fine.
2. 12 volts at terminal 15
3. Coil terminal #1 seems ok. No volts, points closed. 12 volts points, open.
4. Points seem ok. No volts points closed. Volts points open.
5. Coil wire #1 to ground. Gets a spark. Not what I consider a FAT spark.
6. Pulled a spark plug wire. Have a spark to ground, but not what I'd consider a FAT spark.

Went thru this 3 to 4 times. Then I replaced the points, condenser, cap & rotor. Still the same.


I tried Starter fluid down the air intake. Nothing.
Pulled the fuel line going into the fuel rail at #2. Fuel is streaming when the ignition is turned on.
#4 has a leaky Injector seal, so there is fuel there. So I assume that injectors are getting fuel.
Seems to have fuel in the plugs when I pulled them out. There new, too.

I did have the timing 180 degrees off. Fixed that about 1/2 way thru the first go around. I'd taken the dizzy out a year or so ago. Research for the rebuild of my 73 engine.

I'm baffled. The only thing to me that seems off, the wimpy spark.
I hope I've given enough info. I'm walking away for a while.
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Cary
77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor

Last edited by cary; 08-31-2003 at 04:25 PM..
Old 08-31-2003, 12:23 PM
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I thought I'd add. It isn't even trying to start. Not like it would if it was a fuel supply issue.
Not even a sputter.

I'll switch out the coil tomorrow. I switched it out while the timing was off 180 degrees.

It seems to me to be an ignition/electrical issue. ????

Got to be some thing simple. Something I'm over looking.
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77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor
Old 08-31-2003, 01:09 PM
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I'd try to find the top dead center of #1 and make sure the wires are on correctly. Then pull a plug and crank the engine to see if the plug sparks. Then pull all plugs and do a compression test with a batt charger attached and throttle wide open. Then pull the injectors (all) and do a test fire when cranking the engine with them squirting into a can to see if they fire. Check fuel pressure, should be a bout 29# or so. Good luck.
Old 08-31-2003, 02:00 PM
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I did the TDC of #1. ( had to double check the distributor, I had it 180 out. From playing with the dizzy )
Wires are on correct. 1-4-3-2.

This engine/car we brought home 2 years ago. Drove it around about a hour after we bought it. Put it on the trailer and brought it home.
We drove it around the house for a while. Then its sat for 2 years.
It ran fine, before we put it into moth balls.

With an injector seal leaking. I'm going to drop it back out and replace them all.

That's the weird thing. I have both gas and spark. It should do something. Thou it may not be great or smooth.
I compared the spark at the plug to the other car. It seemed about the same.

I can't believe the rings and compression went totally away, sitting there for 2 years.

Thanks for the help.
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Cary
77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor
Old 08-31-2003, 02:57 PM
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I did the double check on TDC. I did the wood dowel in the cylinder hole to make sure we're at TDC trick. #1 valves were slack when the rotor was at the #1 mark on the distributor. #3 valves were slack when I brought it around to TDC again and rotor was pointing to #3 on the distributor.

But then I decided look at the alignment of the rotor and the #1 mark on the distributor base. Looks like I'm on to something.
With the impeller at TDC. The rotor isn't quite yet to the mark on the distributor. And the points are a little more than 1/2 way between the lobes on the distributor.

Reading Haynes. The points should just about begin to open at TDC. Where is that in relation to the rotor alignment to the mark on the distributor base ?
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Cary
77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor
Old 09-01-2003, 04:01 PM
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shouldn't the rotor point to/at the little mark on the dist at TDC on cylinder #1? at least that static timing should allow the engine to run? (where's dave?)
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Old 09-01-2003, 05:11 PM
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I just finished on the same merry-go-round. My guess is that ignition timing is the problem.
Old 09-01-2003, 06:35 PM
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did the injectors pass the squirt test that John R suggested?
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Old 09-02-2003, 12:00 AM
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That didn't do it either.

No, I haven't done the injector test. But I can smell fuel in the tail pipe when I'm done cranking. Plus I shot Starter fluid down the air intake, nothing.

What ever it is, is something simple. Something is backasswards.

Ever ignition componet has been changed. I changed out the coil last night, too. I went back and read all the " Won't Start " threads. Copied off most of Dave's instructions. Used them too.

Next I'll do a compression and fuel pressure test. Just to cross those off the list.
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Cary
77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor
Old 09-02-2003, 05:13 AM
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Jim, I have to agree with you. But everthing seems to be right.

It had been so long since I adjusted the valves. I can't remember what I ran into. That engine has sat around my garage for about a year and 1/2. I freshened up the hoses and adjusted the valves.
I spent a lot of time tinkering with this engine, after I put the hole in the engine from the white car.

What if I adjusted the valves wrong ? If the distributor was upside down went I started. Would they be totally wrong ?
How would I go about checking that ? Would I have to loosen them all up and start over ? When the cylinder is at TDC the valves are closed ? And the springs should be moveable ?

I'm going back to the 180 degrees off, again. But when the cylinder is up. It's up in both 1 & 3. One has loose tappets and one has tight. The loose one is at TDC ?
Which is what I have now, #1 one is loose when I should be. #3 the same.
I can't see myself adjusting a jammed tight valve. I wouldn't/couldn't have done that.

We'll figure it out. I thought I'd just this slip engine in and drive the car for a while.
" Best Laid Plans of Mice and Men ".
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Cary
77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor

Last edited by cary; 09-02-2003 at 07:35 AM..
Old 09-02-2003, 05:35 AM
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The one with two loose rockers should be the one that is at TDC.

The distributor rotor will only roughly point to the notch in the distributor housing when you get to TDC. It often isn't exact.

Is the green wire from the points/condensor hooked up to the #1 terminal on the coil? The thicker black wire that carries +12V should be plugged into #15. (These are easy to swap and can cause problems.) Unplug the black/purple wire from the #1 terminal, just to take the tach out of the equation.

--DD
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Old 09-02-2003, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave at Pelican Parts
The distributor rotor will only roughly point to the notch in the distributor housing when you get to TDC. It often isn't exact.
--DD
That's what I'm working on now. The notch isn't real close.
When I started, the entire contact end of the RL rotor was before the notch on the dizzy.

Tinkering last night, I moved it to the center.

I reread the lost TDC section in Haynes. So I took out the dizzy again. With the contacts on the verge of opening, the rotor should almost completely past the #1 notch on the dizzy case.

Here's where the dizzy was at when I started this journey.



According to Haynes, this where it should be. " On the verge of opening". Is that right ?



I can't believe "that little" would keep it from even trying to start.
But what ever it is, is something simple and stupid.
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Cary
77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor
Old 09-02-2003, 07:30 AM
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Note that "that little" is about 20 degrees of crankshaft rotation...

Have you tried "static timing" the engine? Muir, in his "Idiot Book", details the process. The short version is that you put a light in between the + and - terminals of the coil. With the key on, and the engine set to TDC (#1 or #3 doesn't really matter in this case), you turn the distributor until the light is just coming on. Then tighten the distributor clamp nut, and plug everything back in again correctly.

That should get you close enough for the engine to start.

--DD
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Old 09-02-2003, 07:56 AM
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Automotive 101

Gas-Spark-Air..............all on the same page

Dave, that was it.

I did the static timing from the Haynes. Same thing you discribed, but without the light. The light would be more accurate.

One millisecond on the starter and she fired right up. Spewed a bunch of black crap out the tail pipe. Carbon, fuel and starter fluid.
But she running. Sound ok. A little noisy.

I'm going to drop it back out anyway. I want to put in fresh injector seals. #3 was leaking while I was trying to start it. Now it's dry. But I don't want a flamer. Not a pretty picture.

But I have another problem that I'll put on a new topic.

Thanks everyone for the ideas and encouragement.
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Cary
77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor
Old 09-02-2003, 09:27 AM
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Cary,
Injector seals are an easy replace with engine in place. I have done it several times. Don't remove the engine unless you have other chores to do as well.
Old 09-02-2003, 09:48 AM
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Verify that the REVLimiting Rotor is operation ok. It is designed to eliminate spark...@ a predeterminded RPM...swap it out with a regular one for your tests or check it for continuity....
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Old 09-02-2003, 10:08 AM
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Scott I tested it with the meter. It was fine.
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Cary
77 Carrera RS w/3.2 #59
73 914S 2.0 AG
73 914 1.7 Driver ( daily driver, under complete rustoration )
74 914 2.0, 71 914 Tub, 74 914 2.0 Tub + 73 914 donor
Old 09-02-2003, 01:53 PM
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