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John Rogers's Avatar
 
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Red-Beard.. Looking for 'S' and 'V' gears for the race car

James, or anyone else, I am looking for 'S' for 4th and 'V' for 5th gears in the race car. I currently have 'Q' and 'X' which are too low and too high respectfully. Both these have new wearing parts so they would be a good trade.
Old 10-13-2003, 07:24 AM
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I have a "V" set if you want it.

Geoff
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Old 10-13-2003, 07:46 AM
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John, Redbeard...

I need a definitive answer from someone with more knowledge than me... I have not built a tranny before.

Do the gears for the 2 internal shafts interchange..
What I mean is: can a 3rd gear be moved to 4th or are they different sizes for the 2 shafts.

John, I think there is a few gears about to be available used on 914club... (I don't know if they can interchange into 4th versus 5th)...

Here is a link, (hope this works):

http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=5602&

brant
Old 10-13-2003, 07:54 AM
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Thanks Geoff, I'll let you know, but I think we may have them here??? James knows the tranny's so as soon as he sees this we'll know!!
Old 10-13-2003, 08:14 AM
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I need to look directly at the diagrams.

You have to understand, one side of the gear pair is directly connected to the shaft, and the other side is only connected when the slider engages with the dog teeth.

4th and 5th can be swapped eaisly. If you swap 3rd into 4th or 5th, it's drive ratio will be inverted. This is the classic "H" swap to 5th gear for reducing rpms for the V8 cars.

Call OTTO, he may have a source. Also check with "John Walker's Workshop" on the 911 board. I know he recently picked up a bunch of gears.

Finally, Mittelmotor can get any of the gears...but shipping is expensive. They may be able to get the gears cheaper and more than make up the shipping costs. I wish I had known you needed gears, I just placed an order with Mittlemotor for NLA parts that Pelican can't get.

James
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Old 10-13-2003, 09:42 AM
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Red beard,

I'm trying to let what you said sink in to my thick skull...

After you've had a chance to look at the diagrams, would you know if I could put any "O" into my 4th or would I need to find specifically an "O" created for 4th gear?

going down this same train of thought... If there are two "O" gears, how would I tell them apart as I'm shopping for one to fit into my 4th slot?

TIA TIA TIA TIA... DID I MENTION THANKS..


brant
Old 10-13-2003, 10:15 AM
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3rd and 5th positions can be swapped inverted, but not with 4th. 4th can be swapped with 2nd if you have a 904 mainshaft with a removable gearset.

The classic "H" swap is to use a 4 speed 2nd 'H" gear (which is in the 5 speed 3rd position) and run it in 5th position inverted for a tall 5th gear.

If you tried to put a 3rd (or 5th) in to 4th spot inverted, the fixed gear would need to go on the free-wheeling shaft and the syncro parts would be on the wrong shaft. Does that make sense to you?

So you want a 4th "O"? That's a 23:28. If someone were to sell you a 5th "Y" -- 28:23, then it would NOT swap to your 4th position inverted as an "O". If they had a real 5th "O", then it would swap to 4th, except the angle cut of the gears would be wrong. This is not supposed to be an issue, though.
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Old 10-13-2003, 12:00 PM
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Look at the Gear ratio's chart:

http://members.rennlist.com/chuxter/901&915ratios.htm

The right side is for 901s.

The color's column bands show what was used in what gears or I should say what is available for what gears.

James: I think you can swap 4th into 5th gear position. Just turn it around so that the dogteeth face the correct direction. You would need to do the same on the gear on opposite shaft to match.

A gear designed for 3rd gear position will go into 4th's or 5th's position, but it will invert the ratio.

An "O" for 3rd gear will have the larger gear with the dogteeth and sync band mounted on it. An "O" for 4th and 5th gears will have the smaller gear mounted with the dog teeth and sync band on it.

Each "gear" is really a gear pair. One sits on each shaft. One of the pair is fixed to the shaft with splines. The other sits on a caged set of needle bearings. This gear spins freely on the shaft until the slider, which is lacked to the shaft, mates up with the dogteeth on the gear.

There are 2 shafts. One comes from the engine (input) and one goes to the ring gear (pinion shaft).

In the case of 4th and 5th gears, the gear on the output/pinion shaft is fixed to the shaft. For 2nd and 3rd, the gear on the input/drive shaft is the fixed gear. In the case of 2nd, it is actually a machined part of the shaft for our transmissions.

H gear is 19:32 or 1.684 to 1 ratio. It is designed for 3rd gear and the larger gear is driven by the smaller gear. This means that the dogteeth are on the larger gear. If you took it and instaledl it in 5th gear position, you would need to put the part with the dogteeth on the input shaft, which means the larger gear is now driving the smaller gear. This "inverts" the gear ratio to 0.594, which is a very "long" gear.

In the case of "O", if it were installed "inverted" it would give you the same ratio as "Y".

Does this help any?
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Old 10-13-2003, 01:12 PM
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I guess that is why: A - the gears are expensive and B - I am glad James is here in the San Diego area to help keep us straight!!!
Old 10-13-2003, 01:13 PM
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Ok,

I think I finally get it (well more than I ever have before)...

So since I want to run an "O" in my 4th slot....
I can not use the more common 3rd-slot-O that came in the 914/6 boxes... but instead need to find a more rare 4th/5th "O".

(I'm repeating what you've said so that it will sink in...)
I think I can picture the reason though and I really really appreciate the answer.

brant
Old 10-13-2003, 01:53 PM
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Oops,

I forgot to ask.
how do I tell a 3rd-slot-"O" from a 4th/5th slot "O"

Can I lay it face up with the gears spiraling a certain way and then tell the difference?

thanks again....
brant
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Old 10-13-2003, 02:12 PM
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Nope - you need to look at the gear sizes and which one has the dog teeth and sync band mounted.

Well, I'd have to know what the actual applications were for, but based on the lower part of the chart, there were more applications of "O" in 4th&5th (6) than "O" in 3rd (4).

James
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Old 10-13-2003, 02:43 PM
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Red beard'

Regarding how to differentiate a 3rd O from a 4th/5th O


If I wanted to run it in 4th
(basically an O gear designed to run in 4th/5th)

and I counted the teeth out to 23:28

would the dog teeth and sync band then be facing up or down

TIA
brant
Old 10-13-2003, 03:19 PM
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I hope to go to Mittlemotor at the end of next week so if you want a "O" gear that fits the 4th spot order it and I can bring it back.

Geoff
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Old 10-13-2003, 03:21 PM
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Otto has the gears you are looking for.Steve

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Old 10-13-2003, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by red-beard
The right side is for 901s.

James: I think you can swap 4th into 5th gear position. Just turn it around so that the dogteeth face the correct direction. You would need to do the same on the gear on opposite shaft to match.

Uhh, On Charlies chart I think it's your other right (port)

Yes, it is difficult to explain because you can swap and invert or just swap. I was talking about inverting in the beginning and not inverting at the end of my post - confusing, I know.

Brant - as red-beard said, the "O" for 4th-5th will have the syncro parts (and a smooth bore) on the smaller gear (23 teeth) and a splined center on the larger gear (28 teeth). The difference between the 4th and 5th is the angle cut of the gears is opposite. This places the thrust in the wrong direction if you run a 5th gear in the 4th slot. This is said to not be an issue, but there is a difference.
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Old 10-13-2003, 06:30 PM
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After all this, I think I have a transmission that I can trade for that has the M-S-V upper gears I need and I will probably work some sort of deal with my current race box. I find it helps if you look at the picture James has on his tranny rebuild article site and scan down the gear charts and you can pick out the "pairs" of gears that make up the "S" or "V" ratio. If you blow up the picture you can actually see the slidder, etc. I was wondering what use the tranny with the "O" 4th gear would be for as that is pretty low for a track??
Old 10-13-2003, 07:38 PM
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John, I have an "O" 4th in my short box set up for Streets of Willow or other very tight, technical courses. It is a great 4th for that track and for canyon runs. It is definitely a bit short for the longer tracks. The car is currently geared for ~110 top speed and I figure for our small-displacement cars you want more like 125-130 at the big tracks.
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Old 10-13-2003, 09:29 PM
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John & Chris,

I think we all three are building small bore -6 race cars, but both of yours are running and mine is not yet.

The box I'm putting together is for my 2.0 S engine.

BUT, I have to run a 60series tire in our local vintage rules.
This means I'll be running a 215/60/50 Hoosier (On 6inch rims- don't tell anyone) which are VERY tall. I wish I had the height in front of me, but they look like 4x4 tires. This of course makes my current race box less than optimum. I have enough parts to switch the ratio's around minus the 4th-slot-O.

brant
Old 10-14-2003, 06:20 AM
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Geoff,

That is an amazing offer. I forget how wonderful these boards and the 914 community is.

I think I'll pass for now though.
I'm torn between doing it myself or using the shop that built my last race box. I'm running behind schedule on the race car and may have to go with the shop...

If I find a really amazing deal on used.. I'll try and do it myself.
Otherwise the shop said they would locate and give me a used price + labor... (not a bad offer really)

but Geoff, thank you for the kind offer.
brant
Old 10-14-2003, 03:16 PM
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