Low Budget Camber Plates

Dave Bell · 11-26-2003, 10:43 AM

Messing around with some spare stock camber plates I thought I might

1) Saw off about 1/4" to 3/8" of the in-board edge of each plate..... weld back on side member, creating a narrower camber plate.... some of the existing rubber mount would be cut. Welding back in of side member could be done in very short segments with a quick post quench to minimize burning or melting of the rubber mounts.

2a option) Slot the strut mount holes 1/4" to 3/8

2b option) Remove existing mounting holes in the camber plates by removing backing nuts and weld closed. Then drill two sets of holes for each position.

Result is a lot more camber adjustment room....

1+2b is equivalent to the $450 weltmeister camber plates.... except that you don't get the monoball mounting... I guess one could go all the way and buy some type of monoball mounting and stuff that in the camber plate... Not sure how that would be done.

1+2a is simpler but requires cutting of the strut mounting area metal. I recall that Brad said he had done the cutting of that area before.

Below is a rough first "cut" at what a narrowed camber plate looks like... made it up last night with sawzall, welder and a little grinding.

Comments?

- Dave, still a CSOBOSC

J P Stein · 11-26-2003, 12:08 PM

The hacking on the chassis upper mount area was more than I could abide by......using this method. The big hole needs to be opened both inward and back (for caster). The grinding would remove some of the spot welds holding the thing together. The small holes, just inward.

I laid out the whole (hole?) works on the chassis.....nopers, can't do it.....but it *would* do the trick.

Used the Tarret mount, lowered the suspension and got -2. Had to round file the strut's dust covers....they hit the body work.

Dave Bell · 11-26-2003, 12:15 PM

JP -

I did a quick search on "Tarret", "Tarret mount" and "Tarret camber" and could not find anything.

Can you pass on more info on the Tarret mount.

- Dave

J P Stein · 12:50 PM

No good news for us CSOBs, I'm afraid. Around the same price as the Welts.....prettier, tho

OOPs, cain't speel. WWW.Tarett.com

M. Hendrix · 11-26-2003, 01:05 PM

Those were obviously a gift from someone not afraid to spend money.

Paint!

M

J P Stein · 11-27-2003, 12:18 AM

Sure, the wife bought em' for me. She has more training in the spending arts. She went to school at "Our Lady of Conspicious Consumption".

Quitcher' whining bout paint...better still, save it. Wait'll you see these "new" doors. I'd hate to see you run out of whine.....heh, not bloody likely

M. Hendrix · 11-27-2003, 03:14 AM

I am glad you have taken well to the ribbing, there's plenty more where that came from, primersabbe'...

-insert a smiley that I didn't use the post reply button so I can't get-

-indian with a paint can-

Be safe ya'll.

M

Zeke · 11-27-2003, 07:02 AM

JP, yo sure gotta a lotta caster there. Whyso? I thought AX cars liked less caster for ease of steering and quick turn ins. But mebbe with -2 camber, you need it to keep the tread square to the ground, eh?

J P Stein · 11-27-2003, 10:00 AM

Actually, I don't have enuff caster.
The stock setting is around 6 deg, I'm at 5.

As I understand it (uh oh) caster gives you negative camber on the outside wheel when turning. This helps keep the tire flat on the ground when the car leans that way (to the outside). The inside wheel gets a dose of positive camber, which don't help, but since it ain't doing much work( Or is off the ground, he,he) don't hurt.

Porsches in general are designed to have a goodly amount of caster. The Fox boddied Mustangs have little. One of these handle and the other is a pig.

As to quick turn-in: toe is the ticket here. A bit of front toe OUT makes a car directionally unstable, thus more willing to turn....even when you don't want it to...not a gud thing for a street car, but the hot ticket for an AXer. My car is set with 1/16
toe IN.....with the negative camber, fat tires & all, I can keep it in one lane on the freeway.....it is still a street car, after all.

The wider wheels & fat tires have boogered up the scrub radius, however. I really have to muscle it thru tight AX corners. It pushes in the tight stuff, but is loose in the sweepers (luv them NASCAR terms).

I'm still in the "learning by doing" mode in the suspension areas and not sure that I understand everything I know

Dave Bell · 11-27-2003, 10:42 AM

For the past couple weekends I have been monkeying around with the suspension and alignment... I should say experimenting. Not an Ax'er myself but I did set some Toe out on one of my experimental runs and the feeling in the mountain twistys was awesome!... turn in and steering was effortless... but it would not drive straight down the road for long... nothing dangerous, just not willing to stay lined up down the road. Another time I tried some excessive Toe In and it really felt sluggish turning in... had to put real effort pulling on the steering wheel to hold myself in the turn.... Felt like I was driving a completely different car!

It was the addition of some 140 springs and following necessary front ride height adjustment that got me messing with the alignment in the first place.... And I can confirm that the conventional wisdom is correct... 140's in the rear with a stock sway bar makes the car tail happy.... it got way too exciting the first time I broke it loose on a mountain test run... sheesh!!! Need to stiffen up the front or go back to 100's on the rear... The oversteer is bit too exciting when you are pushing it.

- Dave

J P Stein · 11-27-2003, 11:16 AM

For one summer I ran 140 rears, stock Tbars, and an adjustable
AR bar....set soft, I liked it. The car was decent on hardball 205s, but the car would spin....with no warning. Tank slappers were my specialty. Not the kind of thing one wants to do on the street.....tank slappers take up a whole lotta room.

When I swapped out the 140 hp 2.4L for the 2.7L, "things" got ugly. With the new motor, I got maybe 200 yards into an AX before spinning it.

More rubber....needing flares....it's been downhill ever since

Zeke · 11-27-2003, 11:36 AM

Interesting stuff. We go over and over this and it's still if fun to compare notes. I didn't get a lot of time in my car before seizing the motor due to a very serious, but overlooked carb problem. I ran 0 toe on front, 1/16 th out back. My cambers were 1.5 front, 2 in back. Since I did all the alignment mysefl on a level surface with strings and a made up camber guage out of a Home Defect level, I have no idea what the caster is. I'll have to make up some king of caster guage. Probably a shorter level. Everything seemed good. I'll let you know when I get back out there.

BTW, I found you need to put another level on the primary level showing plumb. Otherwise, you get false readings from the primary level. This will be the biggest issue on the proposed caster tool since the strut rises at compound angles relative to square on the chassis. To calibrate 6 degrees on the caster, I need that figure in a vertical plane parallel to the long dimension of the chassis, correct?

J P Stein · 11-27-2003, 12:05 PM

Quote:

[i] This will be the biggest issue on the proposed caster tool since the strut rises at compound angles relative to square on the chassis. To calibrate 6 degrees on the caster, I need that figure in a vertical plane parallel to the long dimension of the chassis, correct? [/B]

I agree. A torpedo level & a board will get you close. .....of course, I think a chunk of wood will solve bout every problem

I eyeball stuff (with calcumlations,natch) then take it to an alignment shop. My car.....ahem...moves under it's own power

You still thrashing around for a 6, Milt?

Eric Fry · 12-03-2003, 09:31 AM

Dave, a number of years ago we did a similar project on the Dave Said car. we cut away the inboard side, and then slotted the bolt holes and the large opening on the body and seam welded the areas that we cut away spot welds. As for the rubber bushings, can you say flex? Triad performance builds a monoball that welds into a stock mount. Send them yours (modified or not) and they will weld in the bearing keepers and send you back a finished product. The bearing itself is replacable also. Sorry I did not keep any of the info we gathered on the mount modifying, so I would have to start from scratch. If there is a demand for the modified mouint with the bearing, I might be willing to build them by request. Another option for the Triad unit? Is there a demand you guys???

Eric

Dave Bell · 12-03-2003, 09:53 AM

Thanks for the input Eric... I will go ahead and do a little cutting and welding in about a week after a set of Koni's arrive that I picked up off the classified section.

I would think that there would be some interest in less expensive Camber plates.... i.e. less expensive than $450

Over the course of time, I am going to take some machining and CNC courses at the local community college.... I know that they will have us perform some type of project.... I am thinking that mine will be to write a CNC program to produce Camber plates similar to the $450 items out there.

.... reminds me that today is registration day and I need to log in and sign up for the first course.

- Dave

sammyg2 · 12-03-2003, 11:06 AM

Seems like a "thrifty" guy like Dave could take some ball joint bearings from mcMaster Carr and with a little machining/welding mount them in the stock camber plate for around $20 each (pictures from MC catalog to follow):

Dave Bell · 12-03-2003, 12:36 PM

I like the price Sammy.... ... add it to the project list

John Rogers · 12-03-2003, 02:38 PM

I guess I am getting old, but I rank front end integrity right up there with excellent brakes and tires with enough rubber! I would be very hesitant to use anything to support the strut tops other than something that has already been proven in competition such as replacement fender sections or camber plates with races behind them. That area has huge loads placed on it under braking or cornering. Of course if something were to fail, what a great learning experience it would be!!!???

Dave Bell · 12-03-2003, 07:17 PM

John...

give us a little credit for engineering judgement and sanity...

If the bearings are not rated to hold a reasonable load, then I wouldn't use them. I believe the key would be to find out what the load bearing capacity is of bearings in the pricey models and then use the same or one with equivalent capacity.

By the way, it is amazing to me that 30 year old rubber inserts in the stock camber plate are able to take all of the loads associated with the 914's cornering ability.

I would be interested to find out what the loads are.

As for cutting and welding.... its possible to make the mating area stronger than stock if necessary... you should see what I have done to the drivers seat mounting area on one of my cars... ... Again I am surprised at the structural integrity of a 2-3 layers of sheet metal.

As for generating a CNC part... I would be all for using the same materials and basically the same layout as one of the expensive versions.... why re-engineer when you can copy.

- Dave... not so young anymore myself....

J P Stein · 12-04-2003, 12:05 AM

I agree with Mr. Rogers on the subject of front suspension integrity, but have a bit different concerns.

When is the last time you looked (seriously) at your A arms?
All the forces supplied to the various suspension mounts travel there via the A arms. I have seen 2 outright failures and read about one more in the past year.

All of these involved failure of the A arm itself or the ball joint mount at the strut (old style pinch bolt).

The A arm broke at the ball joint mount, just outside of the
doubler. There is a nasty little kink there. The one I saw, broke there and I believe the one I read about was the same.

The ball joint simply fell out of the strut. The pinch bolt set-up just gave up. There is no positive stop there as in the wedge bolt style.

These are 30 year old cars that we are hanging stiffer springs,shox, AR bars, stickey tires....yada, and they weren't designed for these stresses in the first place.