Yup, Sean nailed it.

Take a very small hammer and tap your hand 100 times. It prolly doesn't hurt. Now take a big hammer and hit your hand 1 time, only 100 times harder than before. Hurts like heck. Same energy released, just all at once instead of spread out. Way oversimplified but same principle.

Usually a 901 can handle a 3.0 liter 6 (as long as mikey isn't doing first gear burnouts) just fine, but when you mount a 275 hp 3.6 liter onto a 901 you can figure it won't last long. Ask Steve Iverson ;)
I had a 350 chebby that had at least 325 hp, prolly much more and I never had any problem with the 901.

Horsepower is only torque times rpm. 901 transmissions usually don't break from rpm, they brake from too much twisting motion (torque).

The problem with your theory is that a 8 cylinder engine does not have 8 pulses. In a 4 stroke motor the most you can have in a V or opposed configuration is 4, if you have your journals on two offsets. A v-8 small block does not fire 8 individual times, it fires 4 times 2 cylinders at a time.

Nope. Please do your homework before making these claims. Check the firing order of a small block. It is sequencial. ONE AT A TIME! 18436572 or something like that. it's been a long time and I'm goin from memory and I gots CRS.
A V8 only has 4 pulses per revolution due to being a 4 stroke, but if you ever get two cylinders to fire at once on a chebby V8 you have some serious problems.
A six has three power pulses per revolution.

It's ok, when I was 24 I knew everything. I just got way dumber over the years :)

is Silver2.0 24? can I be 24?

What made you think a v8 fires 2cyl at a time?
Although it probably could be done with a special cam and a custom
ignition system, no chevy v8 that I know of works this way.

Works for me Sammy! I am running a good 400 hp, I know that one day it is going to split in half - 4 years of abuse hasn't done it yet!

I once read that Ducaitis do so well in world superbike because their twin design gave the tire two "pulses" of rest to regain grip. Bang, Bang, Rest, Rest. The fours can't regain grip as well. I'm not sure what this has to do with 901's, but there you go.

First off, I was wrong about two pistons firing at the same time, there are two "up" at the same time, but one is on a compression stroke when the other is on a combustion. I was forgetting that each journal is 90 degrees from the next. But don't give me that your just 24 year old sh$t. I am not a dumbass so don't treat me like one. If you have a logical response, then that is great, I love a good discussion, but not an arguement.

Torque = 5252 x HP
rpm

The problem with this whole arguement is that a v-8 by nature tends to have far more torque than a 911 motor.

A 3.6L has a horsepower rating of 315@6800 and a torque rating of 273@4250. A 2004 Corvette Coupe comes standard with a a 5.7L V8, with a horsepower rating of 350@5200 and a torque rating of 360@4000

The reason as I see it this way is because even a new vette makes it's most power around 5200 rpm, instead of at 6800 for the porsche. It's just in it's design for a 911 to be more high strung than a larger displacement V8.

So, even taking your pulses into account, you pretty much end up where you started when you factor in the higher redline for the porsche motor. And I undestand that you can get a v8 to rev with roller cams and what-not, but most people are better off with an engine set up more like the corvette in my example, becuase of cost and driveablility.

Great explanation on this 8 vs. 6 torque discussion. The flywheel and balancer must do a lot to average-out these pulses but with the right instruments I suppose you'd still see the individual power strokes. So, assuming there's a lot of torque, what's worse on the 901 - popping the clutch at high rpms in low gear with big fat tires? (seems obvious). Or, with the clutch already engaged, putting pedal-to-the-metal? Is 'shock-loading' the transaxle what does the damage? I assume a bigger clutch will make it worse too. Can I safely leave the rice-burner kids behind when the situation arises, without tearing out my tranny?

I have never gone past 11 or 12 hundred rpm while engaging first, the best way to launch is to almost stall, then get as much as your tires will grab (about 1/2 throttle) - shift and roll on second to the floor if you can. Third is where you can get into it hard. Never use the real first, mine is locked out.

Watch out for some of the "rice burrners". I once got spanked by a turboed / nitrous supra. I was pulling away when he squatted down and left like he gained another 200hp. Met him months later at a dino jet shop, 100k$ car that looks near stock. No rear wing or anything. ;)

Oh my, Silver! did we touch the Nitro button? As you become more familiar with this BBS you will see that we RAZZ eachother around here. Especially when we catch someone making statements that did not do their homework. so be a man, pull your pants back up, wipe your chin and smile. You learned something, dint' ya?

Porsche 3.6 would be 45.5 and teh Vette is 45 per pulse so I guess they are equally tetremental to the longevity of a 901 (unless Mr I invented the Internet is driving) Rod's ratty 350 broke 1st and the bearing in teh intermediate plate. we did not have the guys at Pelican to tell us not to use 1st

What's the easiest way to 'lock out' first? Is this done under the shift lever or back at the trans? Or inside the trans?

Re: the rice burners - maybe I'll play it safe and look/listen for the kids with the 'fart cans'. Just the sound of my V8 should be enough to intimidate them. I can't believe that they think their cars sound cool. But I guess when that's all you can afford it must sound ok.

914 GT, on my car I didn't lock out first but kept it functional. I just didn't use it under power. the only reason to lock it out is if you don't trust the driver IMO.
1st gear on my car was very useful when I was putting it in the garage or on a trailer before a race or something. I was happy I kept it functional.

Silver, any time there's a smiley face next to a post it means the poster intends it to be funny, a joke of some sort usually indicating he is yanking you chain, again in fun.

BUT... after your last post I need to set something straight:
Lets take this thread for example. You posted that simply by changing to aluminum heads you saved 200#. I knew better from my own personal experience and laughed out loud when I read that, but kept it to myself.
After someone else corrected you, you said oh yeah.

You then posted that you imagine a 901 would not hold up to 200 hp or more.
I replied that torque is what kills them, not horsepower. This was based on my personal experience and also my education and 23 years of experience first as a millwright, later as a mechanical engineer, and it is an opinion that is shared with several experts on 914 V8 conversions. In fact I believe it is explained on Renegade's web site.

You posted matter of factly that I was wrong. You even used capital letters to emphasise that I was wrong. Kinda ticked me off, but I got over it and tried to explain the reason I believe what I do.

Your come back was that V8 engines fire two cylinders at a time. Total BS, I didn't mind that you were incorrect, I did mind that you posted it in a way that indicated you were absolutely positive about it.

Again, you were corrected, with a smiley face, in an attempt to try and lighten things up before they get ugly. It didn't work.

I tried to offer an explanation in very simple terms to explain the reasoning.

You came back on the attack, and tried to argue your reasoning with a comparison of a corvette and a Porsche six engine, frankly I didn't get your point. BTW a V8 does not have two cylinders at TDC at the same time, ever. Unless the crank is broken even if one is on the exhaust stroke.

OK, One last attempt. Here's an example of what I'm trying to explain about torque vs. horsepower:

A machine in my plant has a 10,000 hp 3600 rpm electric motor running a gear box (speed increasing) which spins a compressor at 6700 rpm.

The coupling between the motor and gearbox is massive, at least three times the size, weight, and strength of the coupling between the gearbox and the compressor.
Why? It is necessary.
Both couplings see exactly the same horsepower (minus some very small frictional losses in the gearbox).
The coupling on the motor sees full torque, the one on the compressor sees full horsepower but reduced torque due to the increased speed and the ratio of the gearbox.
If you have a certain level of power and gear it down, you have more torque. if you gear it up, you have less torque. the horsepower stays the same.

Another example:
Back in the muscle car days I occasionally broke drive shafts and or U joints or transmissions or differentials or axles in cars. Always in 1st gear, not always due to dropping the clutch too hard. I never broke one of those in 4th gear. Why? torque, not horsepower.
same thing that makes horsepower important. torque makes the wheels turn. Horsepower is important because it means you can make torque at higher rpm. that means you accelerate to a higher speed before shifting, which results in your torque level reduced by gearing when you shift.
Same reason a lower geared differential helps acceleration. it is torque that breaks stuff. it is torque that distorts the intermediate plate in a 901 transmission and damages the bearings. it is torque that makes the pinion gear climb the ring gear and interfere with proper gear mesh, resulting in damage in a 901, it is torque that twists the 1st gear imput shaft which is catalevered off the rear of the 901. Have you ever had a 901 aparts? I have. Lots of folks here have.

I could throw out all kinds of complicated formulas and crap but it isn't necessary. I figure it was obvious, maybe I'm wrong. Anyone else here dissagree with this stuff besides silver?

The difference between a V8 and a six on a 901 is well understood, well documented, and accepted by those who hotrod v8 914s.
go to the Renegade site. it's there in black and white. At least it used to be, haven't checked in a couple years.

Call scott Mann of renegade and ask him. I did. He is one of the top three experts on the subject in the world. In fact we talked about V8 914s in my garage as we checked out my V8 car.

Call Rod simpson and ask him. I did.

Contace Brad Roberts and ask him. I did. He's built a whole bunch of V8 914s as well as big six 914s. Brad's been to the house too.

You need to lighten up and think about stuff before you post it as fact.
it wasn't confrontational until you made it that way. There are plenty of folks here who have BTDT. I've learned a great deal from them, much faster and cheaper than if I tried to learn it on my own.
I find that if there's something on this board I don't understand or am not sure of, I ask politely for an explanation. I explain what i don't understand and or disagree with but post it as a question asking for further explanation. I don't post that the person's statement IS WRONG!

I also try not to post things as fact if I'm not sure of them or if I don't know a darned thing about what I'm posting. I'm usually patient with a FNG but not when he knows everything until they are corrected, three times in one thread, then get defensive and aggressive.
Good luck in the future. You just made my ignore list.

Sam, you went to a lot of time/trouble to type that all out. It was highly educational for me and I hope it was for others too. Thanks much.

There are plenty of folks here who have BTDT.

what does "BTDT" mean?
here's Rod Simpson's new page http://porchev.com/914_faq.html
check out the tranny offset on teh rear mount. I also have teh Renegade 1.5 spacer mount. how did yous guys do yours?

I'd say 'been there done that' but we could get creative and think of some new ones.

My rear mounts are spacer mounts like Renegades.

...cut and welded shift bar too?

How'd you know what I worked on yesterday?

the psychic 914 v8 friends network

Suspension Removed. Otto
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1078784091.jpg

When I did my shift bar I just ground off the tack welds on the solid bars where they go into the center tubular section, pulled them out a little, tested the fit, repeat. I had to do some custom bending to miss the headers and engine mount. once I got it the right shape and length I just re-tacked the rods into the tube. Took a couple hours, really got tired of crawling under and out of the car. I paid special attention to keep the holes in the rods indexed correctly so I wouldn't have to play with the adjustment too much. Might have been an easier way but I wasn't aware of it and what I did worked.

Glad to see info pertaining to V8's here. Have not been around in a while but wanted to once again thank all those who helped me with my project. Been on the road about 17 months now and have not broke anything yet.

I had the urge for a new 5.0L mustang engine for my project just because I like the sound this engine makes as compared to a small block chevy. Did my research and found out fitment of the Ford in a 914 was going to be a real hassle and not as clean as with the SBC. The complete kit concept from Renegade attracted my attention as well and they now only make kits for SBC. The V6 caused too many 901 failures for the reasons Sammy mentioned.

My research kept making mention of torque and engine design with respect to when engine make maximum torque. I wanted to go with a brand new engine from chevy (ZZ4) but the torque curve was all wrong for the 901. Ended up having Wild Bill (same guy who builds for RH) put together a all new engine using his experience with this type of drivetrain.

My transaxle was rebuilt to stock specs. about 2 years prior to me purchasing car (with 2L) and has held up well to the 400hp it is coupled to.

Some excellent points have been made in this thread. It is a keeper for anyone wanting to go the v8 route. Sammy, your posts never go unread by me. Thanks again.

John Thomas
Augusta, Ga.

Because of the way I mounted my water pump, I had to clear a section of the bar for the motor mount and hose. First I found how much I needed to take out for clearance, then I used my bearing press to shape some 1/2" tube to match the curve. I welded this on top of the bar on both ends, then cut the bar out afterwards leaving the original geometry intact. I still need to clean it up a bit and paint it, this is how it looks:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1078802061.jpg

I picked a straight section from the old piece I took out, and cut a 1-1/2" length off and used it to lengthen the bar at the tranny end. Before cutting the bar for the added section I scribed a line along the bar lengthwise for proper alignment, and slipped a short piece of 1/2" conduit inside to help hold the pieces straight until I welded it in.

could you tell us more about that variation in water pump plumbing.

I bolted the pump on the motor mount bar. This puts it down low in the system. A short suction hose attaches it to my hard line running under the car. In the picture above there's a plugged elbow, to connect to a separate hose for my heater core. The pump outlet has a short hose running to the water manifold on the front of the block. I've got a Dedenbear expansion tank bolted on the intake, with a hose to the other hardline under the car. It's really simple and looks good. The real question is - will it cool my car? Maybe in a couple more weeks I will find out.

OK, that explains alot. I was going to ask you about that "Dedenbear" thing on your mojo. did you allready post pics of your rad install? Being so close to being able to drive it feels great. I love that feeling but Im a long wats away. The stock track car comes first, then the v8

Haven't posted any pics, but I can put a couple up showing the radiator and the top of the engine if you're interested. I did post a pic on the water pump mounting a week or so ago here => http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/engine_bar1078284334.jpg

why electric?

The electric pump cost me $275, pushes 15 gal/min on 3 amps regardless of engine rpm. Very reliable and long life (> 10k hours) providing no teflon tape or leak stop put in the cooling system to jam the impeller. I can mount it where it's easy to get to. A custom mechanical pump using a Chrysler impeller was going to run me almost $500 including the brackets, pulley, and belt. If I built one up myself it would have been cheaper though. Maybe I'll regret going this route but that's part of the fun doing something my own way and learning from it. If it doesn't pan out I can always go to a 'conventional' pump. Will find out once I'm up and running in the desert heat.

Here's two more pics of the radiator and the expansion tank. Pardon the dust.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1078889480.jpg

:)

Guy, that's a great looking conversion your doing. How about a quick overview of specifics to bring me and others up to speed on it. Most of this you've probably said many times, but stuff like what engine, manifold, carb, is the engine mount from a 'kit', did you use a hybrid company for parts, anything you'd do differently (so far). I'm seriously considering this option.

914GT,

An overview would be nice......whose radiator setup are you running?

Andy

Doug, I'm a newbie to this. It's my first conversion and if not for people on this board (like John, Sam and Sean) and another Tucsonan whose done previous conversions, the project would have been much more difficult. Just like anything else you can take advantage of somebody elses' experience and either copy it (don't reinvent the wheel) or maybe improve upon it. Or if you're a 'hacker' like me, go off and do your own thing once in a while. I've deviated from the 'normal' way of doing these conversions in a few areas. Like I said, I think that's what makes it fun and interesting. It's cool to be different once in a while, the whole car is different.

As an overview, I bought this car about 18 months ago. It barely got me across town and it smoked so bad that people gave me the finger and held their nose at stop lights. The car died right when I got to my driveway and I had to push it the last 30' into the garage. I stripped it down to find hidden rust and lots of screwed-up things mechanical and electrical. I was amazed the car ran at all. I spent several months repairing rust and old collision damage to get the body straight. I bought the tools and set up my own paint booth, and it was my first paint job I will admit doing. I did most of the preparation for the conversion (cutting holes, etc.) before painting. Also did trailing arm and other body stiffening. I spent the past year or so just 'restoring' every part of the car. All new bushings, brake upgrades, rotors, etc. Lots of $$! I completely re-did the interior but with more fabric, sound insulation, and some powdercoating. I originally had a 305 I rebuilt but this was the absolute worst-choice motor, so I sold it and the buyer (friend of mine) has promised me a 327 core as part of the deal (future project). For now I rebuilt a 350 which is what's going in. It's bored .030 over, has stock heads with some pocket porting and stronger valve springs. All new valves, guides and seats. Performance cam (not RV) chosen for torque mid to high rpm. Clutch and adapter are Kennedy, and few other parts I bought locally. My buddy here in Tucson sold me a custom radiator and the powdercoated fan shroud.

There's probably a few things I'd have done a little differently but overall I'm happy with it. It should be a fun car. I just hope the gas prices don't go so high I can't afford to drive it. Then I'll want the old 2.0 back in. Feel free to ask questions, I'm happy to share what I've learned from the other experts here.

Guy,

Kudos on the clean installation!! It's rare when you find someone who goes to this level of detail.........I've seen my share to hack jobs. The blood, sweat, tears and $$$$ you have dropped so far will pay off in the end.

Your electric pump installation is unique and I look forward to hearing the results.

Don't take this as a dig, but the only thing I see that you may regret in the future is choice of expansion tank. You'll spend some time removing air from system and the device your using may create a mess on top of that pretty engine when it comes time to add fluid during the fill and air removal (bleed) procedure. For less $$$ I recommend the RH fill device that is installed away from engine in a more friendly position.

Keep up the good work!!

John

John, thanks very much for the encouraging comments. I don't take anything as a dig. If somebody points out a potential problem I want to hear about it. Now, on that expansion tank - here's the rest of the story. If you look right under the 'radiator' cap you'll see a plugged hole. That is one of two available holes for a hose fitting that will go to an overflow tank mounted nearby. So the plan is, once I do the initial fill & bleed, that I'll only need to add coolant on occasion to the overflow tank. So hopefully I won't have much of a mess going on right on top of the engine.

But you just pointed out something - if I was to do it again I'd go with the RH filler. Easier and cheaper.

Guy, very, very nice. It shows that you are paying attention to the details and that's the difference between a great conversion car and a hack job.

I can't wait to see pics when it's done. Keep it up, don't get discouraged. I know how much work is involved and it's easy to get burned out on it.

Guy,

What kind of thermostat did you install and did you drill holes in t/s to prevent water pump from dead heading while engine warms up?


John

No thermostat yet. Any temp recommendation? What's the concern with a closed thermostat when cold?

Guy,

With the mechanical water pump, damage can occur to impeller if rpm is too high each time car is started when cold. I suspect this could happen to any type of pump. Until thermostat begins to open, the water pump is just dead heading.

A stock chevy water pump has bypass to prevent this from happening. With our arrangement, the bypass is eliminated.

The other purpose of the three 1/8" holes in thermostat is to eliminate air bubbles when filling cooling system. With the t/s closed (without any added holes), you fill your system and the water goes down the return hose to radiator, when radiator is filled, water (and air) then heads back to water pump and has to work its way through non spinning impeller and then into block. The added holes in t/s allow air to escape during this procedure and eliminates these pockets throughout system.

My t/s of choice (and I've used them all) is distributed by Mr. Gasket. It looks different than anything else I've used and when in the open position allows more water to flow than your run of the mill t/s. Available through Summit or Jeggs and listed as their "highflow thermostat". There is a thread on 914club this week that shows a picture.

I use the 180F range. Even with my Renegade cooling system, I had temperature spikes higher than I wanted to see until this t/s was installed.

John

I used a 180 degree T-stat with four 1/8" holes drilled in it, that was done AFTER I blew a hose off the pump. Those chrysler pumps can puit out some serious pressure. I don't know if the electric pump would do the same thing, prolly not.
The thermostat I used was one of those "fail open" style. Not sure if it was necessary but sounded good on the package.