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Alfred,
VW owns Porsche, Bentley, and Audi. Thats the connection. Do you think when Porsche stopped racing Le Mans they just threw away all their equipment and expertise and made Audi start from scratch? Hell no! There is a reason Audi had a winning team from day 1.
I'll put whatever I want in my profile. I post 30x more on the 914club then here, and so do many 914ers here (except for you). I like this forum because of the 912 section, and I browse the 914 stuff sometimes.

BigD9146gt,
I was refering to popularity. I remember reading an article not too long ago that said worldwide F1 was #1 motorsport, then was Nascar, then WRC, and Le Mans. IIRC the article said F1 was only second to soccer as a worldwide grossing sport... but Im not totally sure thats right.
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattr_914
Alfred,
VW owns Porsche, Bentley, and Audi. Thats the connection. Do you think when Porsche stopped racing Le Mans they just threw away all their equipment and expertise and made Audi start from scratch? Hell no! There is a reason Audi had a winning team from day 1.
I'll put whatever I want in my profile. I post 30x more on the 914club then here, and so do many 914ers here (except for you). I like this forum because of the 912 section, and I browse the 914 stuff sometimes.

So why do you put the 914Club URL in your signature here? And, I'll bet you a million dollars that VW doesn't own Porsche.
Old 12-15-2004, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattr_914
Alfred,
VW owns Porsche, Bentley, and Audi.
VW has never owned Porsche. Porsche is one of the very few car companies left that is still independent. They do share close development ties with Audi and VW however...
Old 12-15-2004, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattr_914
Alfred,
V

I was refering to popularity. I remember reading an article not too long ago that said worldwide F1 was #1 motorsport, then was Nascar, then WRC, and Le Mans. IIRC the article said F1 was only second to soccer as a worldwide grossing sport... but Im not totally sure thats right.
Four years ago , when the company I work for was an associate sponsor of a Schumi/Ferrari a friend in marketing explained the astronomical cost of this sponsorship. She claimed the total number of tv viewers world wide was over quadruple what the super bowl delivers ,and this happens 17 times a year. (Somebody in marketing must have gotten dollarwise because we now work with Williams and are taking the money we saved to be a primary sponsor in Nascar. )
I think as long as Porsche supports privateers and continues to produce models which can be campaigned in club series it is being true to Dr Porsches legacy.
Oh yeah , how about the car Hurley Ha
ywood and Gregg the younger are campaigning in the Gran Am series?

I would like to see Porsche develop a truly hi performance hi tech hybird
Old 12-16-2004, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattr_914
BigD9146gt,
I was refering to popularity. I remember reading an article not too long ago that said worldwide F1 was #1 motorsport, then was Nascar, then WRC, and Le Mans. IIRC the article said F1 was only second to soccer as a worldwide grossing sport... but Im not totally sure thats right.
Matt, i have no doubts that Soccer is #1. F1 being second, yes, as a "worldwide grossing sport". That, without any argument, is correct. I'm amazed how many poeple in America think Football and Nascar are big.... Which they are, but they don't think relative. Nascar is growning bigtime, but thats due to good advertisment.

Money making sports, F1 is up there, and Schumi was the highest paid if not still (for doing a job, not including "clothing line income and indorcments", but i would still stick to the notion that WRC spends the MOST $$$ on the sport itself. Think of the time and labor to setup those stages? Granted its just a local road thats cleared form traffic, but the man hours to get everything setup is huge. Every track that F1 visits is its own track (with the exception of some street converted courses) , and is already a money making entitee. "Lucifers Ln" that goes up the rocky cliffs of Greece's mountains needs to be gone over before the drivers start, where as on a closed track, there are not rock slides to worry about...
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Old 12-16-2004, 08:43 AM
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When we sponsored Ferrari the deal( Iwas told) had a rider clause that included several "millions" to Shumi, ( and less to Rubenio) to include our logo on their uniform epaulattes (sic). This of course was money well spent because damn near every week Shumi's mug was gracing the covers of sports pages and racing Magazines in every market round the world. (For ya'all that live down here in the ex-confederacy just imagine Shumi's picture replacing Lil E's on all the billboards, store promo's ect. to get the idea)
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattr_914
They arent competing in the high dollar P1 class (formerly P900) in Le Mans, instead they are letting their partner audi use their name plate to boost sales. Instead they are DOMINATING the GT class with their GT3 and GT3 RS.

Quote:
Originally posted by JmuRiz
Porsche was working with Audi, and Audi is the same company as Bentley. Funny how Porsche was developing a new ALMS car and scrapped it right when the Audi car was about to get real good. Also the Audi factory dropped out and basically worked on the Bentley when it won. I think when Audi wants out of the LeMans scene is when Porsche will get back in.
Man where do you guys get this stuff?

------------

Quote:
Alfred, we had not heard it either--and neither has anyone in our Motorsports Division. I'm afraid this is an unfounded rumor; they are actually rivals on the track.

Thank you for contacting Audi of America.

Marjorie
AudiTalk

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 3:58 PM
To: auditalk@audi.com
Subject: Corporate Feedback - Motorsports


First name :Alfred
Last name :
Email Address :
Subject :Corporate Feedback
Comments :Hello, Someone told me that Porsche is helping Audi with its current Le Mans racing program and I was just wondering if that's true since I hadn't heard this before. Thank you, Alfred
Old 12-16-2004, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alfred1
So why do you put the 914Club URL in your signature here?
Just for you alfred
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Old 12-16-2004, 11:56 AM
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Although Porsche at Weisachs has been contracted by just about every single car company at one time or another, i'm with Alfred. Porsche isn't as interested today with Le Mans now that Ferry is gone.

One does have to consider that Porsche isn't spending very much money on racing, but more on making SUV's and limited supercars. This would leave time for Weisachs to aid Audi.
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Old 12-16-2004, 11:58 AM
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Porsche dominates the GT class though. Isnt that enough? Considering their partner (not owned by Porsche, that was my mistake) is currently racing P1, it wouldnt make sense. Especially considering Le Mans is a race with a great deal of nationalism, if a German company has #1 in P1 it wouldnt make sense to try to compete with them.
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Old 12-16-2004, 08:13 PM
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Dont forget that Porsche also provides engineering services to quite a few companies. Recently they helped Harley Davidson develop the V-Rod..
Old 12-16-2004, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattr_914
Porsche dominates the GT class though. Isnt that enough? Considering their partner (not owned by Porsche, that was my mistake) is currently racing P1, it wouldnt make sense.
Who's their partner? Audi? What's the exact nature of their partnership and where can I read about it? In case you missed the information in my post above, I emailed Audi and asked them:

Quote:
Someone told me that Porsche is helping Audi with its current Le Mans racing program and I was just wondering if that's true since I hadn't heard this before.
and they responded:

Quote:
Alfred, we had not heard it either--and neither has anyone in our Motorsports Division. I'm afraid this is an unfounded rumor; they are actually rivals on the track. Thank you for contacting Audi of America.
I think you speculate much too much about their current racing program.
Old 12-16-2004, 09:42 PM
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Maybe I speculate too much, but I dont think you can ignore their GT class entrant. The GT3RS is a very competitive car and wins just about every outing. Yet there hasnt been much mention of it as race activity.
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:58 PM
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matt, I think the part your overlooking is the fact that the GT3RS is not raced by a factory team. Yes, the GT3RS is the best race car for the money period. But its other private teams that are racing them. Porsche has not entered a factory team in quite a while. Most of the other race car manufactures race their product...
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Old 12-17-2004, 07:44 AM
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Porsche gets their customers to do the racing for them. And makes money at it. The other manufacturers do their own racing. And spend money to do it--usually a heck of a lot of money!

Ferdinand Piech, the head of the Volkswagen Group up until 2004, is a part of the Porsche family. (A nephew of Ferry's.) He worked at Porsche for quite a few years, and was responsible for the creation of some of our favorite race cars. (917, anyone?)

Porsche has done engineering work on contract for VW since the beginning of the company. They have also done engineering work for other companies (e.g., the V-rod already mentioned above) since the beginning. VW Group and Porsche have had joint marketing agreements in the past, and they have fully cooperated on the design and manufacture of at least three vehicles that I know of. (914, 924, Cayenne/Touareg)

VW Group owns Audi. They also own Bentley, though the ownership seems to mostly be through their Audi brand. (Audi == luxury, so Bentley and Bugatti and such are owned "through" Audi.) VW wanted to give their Bentley brand some "race cred", so they took their championship-winning R8 and stuck a roof on it, painted it British Racing Green, and called it a Bentley. And declined to run the Audi-badged cars against it.

VW and Porsche are not the same company, they are not full partners. They are competitors in the marketplace (some niches) and on the track (in some classes and some venues).

--DD
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Old 12-17-2004, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by firey914
I say they throw the cayenne's v8 into the front of a coupe, and make it a big 4 seat coupe (645ci style) - revive the 928
YOUR GETTING WARM!

I was told from a person in the right place to know that they are working on a boxter coupe type car with the cayenne's v8 in it.
There is one allready being tested at the proving grounds.
Poor mans GT?
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:53 PM
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woohoo!

a bit off topic - my dad and i test drove a new 911 S the other day...what a car!
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Old 12-17-2004, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigD9146gt
matt, I think the part your overlooking is the fact that the GT3RS is not raced by a factory team. Yes, the GT3RS is the best race car for the money period. But its other private teams that are racing them. Porsche has not entered a factory team in quite a while. Most of the other race car manufactures race their product...
Yes, but wasnt the R8 also not a factory venture? Joest raced those as a privateer during their hayday. And were there factory 956/962s back in the day either? It was my understanding most 956/962s were just Porsche chassis' or bodies that had been significantly reworked, especially in their later years. I mean porsche still has to spend the money (and lots of it) developing a competitive race car.
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:15 PM
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Porsche's business model for promoting their products vis a vis racing is ahead of the game (as usual).
Their legacy , and their great strength , lies in visionary engineering,inovative products and efficent production techniques.
They are not in the business of constructing or campaigning race cars. Given the volatile nature of the various sactioning bodies and their petty dictators (Eccelstone,Tony George, The Bill France Gang) it makes good business sense to become a supplier/partner to other companies that will deal with the byzantine nature of the competion/entertainment industry.
Ford has this figured out. They get a much better return with their Nascar program by partnering with competion/entertainment specialists (Roush/Yates/Wood's Bros) then did their own subsidary , Jaguar , and it's policy of owning/engineering/producing/running their F1 team. (Famous quote from a dearborn bean-counter durring the aquisiton of Jaguar..."Who the ##$@ is Eddie Irvine and what does he do for 7 million a year ?")

Porsche used this partnership approach in the 60/70's with John Wyer and the Gulf 917s and Roger Penske's Can-Am 917s.

The days of factory owned and run racing programs are fading fast ( unless you are goverment backed team from Italy).
Old 12-18-2004, 06:23 AM
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schosh, those are great points. Porsche, who doesn;t have all that much money in perspective, is much wiser to have others do their racing work. I was not aware that Ferrari was government backed, but this also does not supprize me either. They have found their nitch market, and they have a lot of rich people backing them. Its funny Ferrari Race and Ferrari Auto are two separate businesses.

matt, the R8 was obviously Audi's factory deal, not Porsche. The 956/962 was also, i'm pretty sure, Porsche factory. Someone correct me, wasnt the GT1 in 98 was the last factory backed entry.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave at Pelican Parts
... have had joint marketing agreements in the past, and they have fully cooperated on the design and manufacture of at least three vehicles that I know of. (914, 924, Cayenne/Touareg)
--DD
Dave, I agree with everything BUT the inclusion of the 914 and 924.

Why would Porsche invest that much money in man-power to only make 3,360 (30 of which were GT's) units. Yet VW made close to 115,600 units. I beleive, like most projects that end in low numbers (not including homologinized), that there were multipul problems.

A few being the fact that the head of VW died abruply and very close to the 914's introduction date. Why then was the 914 $500 less than the 911T? We're talking about an entry level car here. The head of VW at the time made a handshake deal with Porsche on the price of the chassis, to which the new head of VW knew nothing about. Also, the 914 didn't have a chance to prove itself, everyone, even the factory, had already damned it to be weaker than the flagship 911. The 916 is, IMO, a way for the factory to say sorry to such a capable car.

The 924 was Porsches design for Audi, with no intension to have a Porsche version. It was Porsche who then bought back the 924 rights after Audi abandoned the project. And why not, it was/is the wave of the future. Fact, water cooled can accomplesh more power than aircooled, period.

Porsche powered winabago. 917 style motor, and get Cris Bangle on the phone, he's done wonders for increasing manufacturers sales (BMW excluded).
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Old 12-19-2004, 10:39 AM
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