I Need Input On Replacement Of Fi System With Carb.'s
 

HI YALL, THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE TO REPLACE THE PERFECTLY WORKING FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM WITH A CARBURATION SYSTEM.
THE OWNER WISHES TO DO SO FOR EASIER ACCESS TO PARTS WHEN ON THE ROAD. HE IS ABOUT READY TO RETIRE AND IS AN AVID MECHANIC BUT NOT WISE IN THE WAYS OF THE IF SYSTEM.
HE THINKS THAT IF WE REPLACE THE FI SYSTEM WITH CARB.S, HE WILL HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF REPAIRING THE CAR HIMSELF ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD WITH FEWER SPECIAL TOOLS AND ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT. AND HEY I HAVE TO AGREE WITH HIM BECAUSE HE HAS MANAGED TO KEEP HIS 3 KIDS AND HIMSELF IN CORVAIRS FOR OVER 30 YEARS WITH NO OUTSIDE HELP.
SO NOW THAT YOU KNOW THIS, I NEED TO KNOW WHAT IS THE BEST CARB. SETUP FOR A STOCK 1973 914-4 2.0?
KEEP IN MIND THAT THE IF SYSTEM WILL BE KEPT FOR FUTURE RE INSTALLATION, IF SOMEONE ELSE WISHES TO PUT IT BACK IN.
I AM LOOKING AT 2 SETUPS NOW, THE WEBER 44 IDF AND 48 IDF.
AND FOR YOU PUREST OUT THERE THIS CAR HAS NEVER HAD A DINT OR DING, NO RUST, GARAGE KEPT WITH CAR COVER, NEVER BEEN TO THE BEACH. DRIVEN EVERY WEEK FOR AT LEAST 25 MILES. AND EVERYTHING WORKS. NOW DON'T THAT STING.

Kinda stupid idea IMHO but Weber 40's with the right linkage work ok. He can expect crappy gas mileage from the swap.

FI is pretty darn relieable, hasn't it lasted for 30 years on his car? Mine has yet to crap out on the road. I did have a CHT go bad but I just couldn't start it up one morning.

If he cares enough about his 914, and it sounds like he does, he is making a mistake. Talk him out of it.

If you want to reduce the longevity of your engine, decrease your mileage, reduce the value of the car, and also gain virtually no power over the stock fuel injection, go ahead and install carburetors.

Yep ... I agree; BIG TIME bad move by the owner.

Stupid move if I do say so myself; you'll get no recommendation from me to contribute in the sabotage of a perfectly good running D-Jet FI system. If he's as avid a mechanic as he says he is, all he has to do is READ.

HEY GUYS THIS IS NOT WHAT I EXPECTED.
APPARENTLY MOST OF YOU DON'T DRIVE YOUR CARS CROSS COUNTRY. IN PAST YEARS I HAVE BEEN STRANDED IN LITTLE TOWNS ACROSS THIS LARGE COUNTRY WITH A FUEL INFECTED VW 2.0 AND YOU CANT FIND PARTS FOR THEM. ALL YOU NEED WITH A CARB. IS AN EXTRA KIT. MAYBE A FLOAT.
AS FAR AS THE POWER ISSUE I HAVE EXPERIENCED A LARGE INCREASE IN ACCELERATION AND MY MILEAGE IMPROVED.
THE LAST 2.0 I CHANGED ON A TRANSPORTER HAS OVER 100K AND IS STILL RUNNING STRONGER THAN IT DID WHEN IT WAS FUEL INFECTED. I HAVE SEEN VANS THAT WERE UNDER CARBED (CARB.S TOO SMALL) AND THEY DON'T LAST VERY LONG. THEY BURN UP FROM RUNNING TOO LEAN.
BUT THIS IS A PORSCHE SO I NEED INPUT ON THE KIND OF CARB BEST TO USE.
LETS PRETEND THAT ALL OF THE PARTS FOR THE FUEL INFECTION SYSTEM ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE. WHAT IS THE BEST CARB. SETUP.
AND HEY IF THIS DON'T WORK IT IS BACK TO THE FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM WE GO.
AND ALSO AS A FOOT NOTE I LIKE FUEL INJECTION. IT MAKES A LOT OF MONEY FOR MY SHOP.

As I said, dual Weber 40's if you can find them. Triad sells a really nice linkage instead of that hex bar crap.

As for more power, we (914'ers) have done dyno tests to actually see that carbs rob hp on the 914 unless you install a carb cam.

if the FI is working, DON'T change to carbs...

but if you MUST, (against all rational thought, might I add) weber 40s with a good linkage...

hope you know more about CARBs than FI though... they require much more tweaking...

Let's get this out of the way first--I feel that the stock fuel injection system is a better choice for a stock motor.

But we're not talking about my car, are we?

Of the two choices you list, the 44s are better than the 48s. The 48s have a response much like a light switch--they're either closed, or they're open, without much transition. They're great for top-end power if the motor is built for it (massive lumpy cam, with valvetrain and bottom end set up to survive high RPMs) but they are too much for a streetable 1971cc Type IV.

The 44s are better, in part due to the smaller throats. You can put small venturis in them and evidently improve them further, in addition to re-jetting. And supposedly they aren't built to be on-off switches, so they have better transitional behavior.

As you may be able to tell, 40s seem to be the preferred size of Weber for a stock-ish 2.0 914 motor. Though some feel 44s are better.

Then you have the Dell'Orto fans. They claim vastly superior driveability to Webers. I think it's because they have lots of "progression ports" in the carbs? Anyway, they're supposed to work a lot better at low throttle openings which is where a street car will spend most of its life. Dell 40s seem to be the preferred size of those. (Note that those are supposed to flow as much as the Weber 44s at WOT.) They are hard to come by, though.

Avoid at all costs any single-carb setup. Unless you want to go through the trouble of designing and building some way of heating up the manifold to prevent drop-out and manifold wetting.

--DD

We're 914 lovers; what did you expect?
What leads you to believe we don't, just because we support the stock D-Jet FI over carbs?
And how exactly was that FI VW 2.0L maintained? I know of aircooled FI VW's with over 250K miles that haven't broken down due to FI-rated issues; should they hurry-up and install a carb for piece of mind?
Right, like just about any FLAPS carries just about ANY carb part you could possibly need; I don't think so ...
And our experiences have been the absolute complete opposite, on a stock engine, with no cam change. Split a perfectly good case for just that option alone just doesn't make good sense.
Two TOTALLY different FI systems and engine applications. Transporters and 914's; apples & oranges ...
The best solution would be the original FI system, especially if it WORKS.
Everything is still out there, you just have to look. Some still over-the-counter.
Save yourself the unnecessary costs of the conversion (and damage to the engine) and leave it FI.
By fixing it, or NOT fixing it? What are you admitting here? The name of your ACVW shop?

Seems to me, for the price of the Webers and installation, he could buy spares for the most failure prone FI bits and pack them in the car with a good manual. Win-Win

ROUSER . I AM NOT TRING TO PICK A FIGHT JUST FIX THE CAR THE WAY THE OWNER WANTS IT AND HE WANTS CARBS. I LIKE TO LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE FOR ME. MY 1954 CORVETT HAS 3 SIDEDRAFT CARBS. I DONT WANT TO FUEL INFECT IT. MY 1970 240Z HAS CARBS. I LIKE IT JUST FINE. MY 1979 VW TYPE 1 CONV. HAD FI. IT SUCKED TILL PUT CARBS ON IT. MY 1999 VET HAS FI. IT RUNS VERY WELL. THE 3 MUD HOG TRUCKS I BUILT HAVE IF SYSTEMS I INSTALLED. IT WORKS BETTER ON STEEP INCLINES AND NEAR ROLL OVERS. I HAVE INSTALLED IF SYSTEMS FOR GUYS THAT HAVE OFF ROAD VEHICLES. THEY LOVE THEM. AS FAR AS REPAIRING 914 INJECTION SYSTEMS I HAVE ONLY WORKED ON 3 OTHERS. THEY ALL RUN WELL. BUT ONCE AGAIN THE OWNER OF THIS ONE WANTS CARBS. I THAT HURTS YOUR FEELINGS I AM TRULY SORRY. AS FOR ALL THE OTHER INPUT THANK YOU, YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN A REAL HELP. I WILL LOOK INTO THE DIFFERANCE OF THE 2.0 VW AND 2.0 PORSCHE BEFORE I ORDER ANYTHING. BUT AT THIS POINT I THINK THE 44'S WOULD BE THE TICKET.

Without replacing the cam in the 2.0, it isnt worth putting carbs on it. especially 44's..

If anything you might get 5 or 10 horsepower, and your mileage will go way down

For a stock 2.0, weber 40's are sized better. If not available, 44's will work, but they may not deliver the mileage that 40's can.

Good luck.

PS. The stock FI is the best answer, but you've heard that enough already.

I never assumed you were trying to pick a fight; why would you think that? I also didn't need a vehicle inventory; that doesn't impress me.

Hey, suggest to the owner that, since YOU can not fix the FI system that you HIGHLY recommend he keep using (wink, wink), that you'll locate a ACVW or Porsche shop in the local area that CAN fix it. This way, another 914 doesn't get butchered with a carb conversion, and all the issues said conversion usually incurs for the owner (read this post as an example).

You'll be looked upon as a saint ... ;)

ROUSER, ROUSER, ROUSER. LOCATE A PORSCHE SHOP IS JUST WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO AVOID.
YOU HAVE MISSED THE POINT COMPLETELY.
THE F.I. SYSTEM ON THE CAR WORKS FINE. I FIXED THAT ALREADY.
THE OWNER DOESN'T WANT THE SYSTEM ON HIS CAR.
SO INPUT FROM OTHERS THAT HAVE DONE THIS IS WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR.
IF YOU HAVE PUT A CARB SYSTEM ON YOUR CAR THEN THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT.
IF NOT THEN YOU ARE NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE OF THIS POST.
THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT. THOUGH OBVIOUSLY LIMITED TO A DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I SAY SO ATTITUDE.
ONCE AGAIN THANKS TO ALL THAT REPLY, I AM STILL COLLECTING DATA. THE PROJECT IS NOT A GO JUST YET.
BESIDES THIS LITTLE SUCKER IS FUN TO DRIVE.
IT WILL OUT HANDLE THE VET HANDS DOWN, BUT LACKS THE ACCELERATION THE VET HAS.
KIND OF LIKE DRIVING A GO CART ON STEROIDS.
I LIKE IT.

Gokart on steroids? Try one with a V8, though I want to change my Holley 600 for a modern FI, but that's a whole different discussion....;)

I AM "KNOWLEDGEABLE OF THIS POST" and NOT "OBVIOUSLY LIMITED TO A DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I SAY SO ATTITUDE." I'm just sensitive to individuals making claims about modifications to 914's that JUST DON'T WORK.

My 914 has dual 44IDF Webers (installed by the previous owner), and if it could've been done I would've recommended NOT installing carbs in the first place.

Carbs on a stock engine will NOT increase acceleration, but WILL decrease engine life, driveability, AND the vehicles value.

Better off he just sell the car as-is to someone who'll appreciate it AS-IS, and just go out and buy a Vette; plenty of them to go around.

Just a tip for the original poster: For the love of all that is good and holy, stop typing in all capital letters. Typing in all capitals is the equivalent of shouting and the overall impression is highly un-professional.

As for reliability, I had over 130,000 miles on my '76 914 when I sold it with the stock FI. It still ran perfectly despite having been stored outside for several years and driven in the manner in which daily-drivers are typically driven. The stock FI is absolutely bulletproof unless an incompetant mechanic has effed it up.

Sorry about the caps lock. And I am going to talk to the owner again about not changing the system. I think goose2 makes a good point we could stash some of the harder to find parts in the trunks along with the manual he (the owner) is literate and can transmit data to his fingertips. This way all I will have to do is replace all the worn and loose fitting hoses, and weak fuel lines, move the fuel pump to a more desirable location ot avoid vapor lock, repair the bad connections, and hope the injector hoses last for a while longer. Hey do you guys repair injector hoses at the injector or replace the injector?
And how about electronic ignition? good? bad?

I like to replace the hose at the injector as it does crack there. Pertronix is a good set up if you don't leave the key on.

The special curved hose sections have been NLA for a while, though either people keep finding them in old boxes or the manufacturer does run off small runs of them periodically, because they do become available from time to time.

I usually just us a short length of FI hose, and route it so the hose doesn't kink. A spring inside the hose can help with that, of course. Use FI hose clamps, not the worm-gear type clamps that are more common. The rolled edges and such keep the clamps from cutting into the hoses.

BTW, so far my experience is that vapor lock is a problem that everyone blames, but fairly few people actually have...

--DD

Thanks dave and bleyseng. I have also repaired the hose at the injectors, but some ppl. dont think its a good idea. Well I have a meeting with the owner tomorrow I will again try to talk him out of the conversion, as i did after the reply's i recieved from my first post. And as a new twist on the problem, Weber is (from what i gather) is in chapter 11, and is in the process of selling to another company. So ordering a carb. set up now has become almost impossible. This thread may already be cut. Thanks again to all who have contributed.

If he's not worried about ultimate performance why not go with a single carb? Less expesive, less hassels etc. I had a Type 4 VW bus with a single carb before I upgraded to dual carbs and it ran great and got excellent gas mileage for a Bus. I think dual carbs on a street car is overkill if your not looking for ultimate performance. Sounds like this guy just wants reliability.

I would have to agree with most of the people here however. Fuel injection is pretty fool proof and very reliable. I have been on several cross country trips and never had fuel injection crap out on me. Rather than spending money on carbs why not just buy all the key spare parts for fuel injection?

single carb setups run too lean and never get right... carbs like, nay, DEPEND on the manifold getting warm enough, and the single carb setups DON'T get warm enough... this will cause the engine to wear quickly and run too hot.

Well rouser will be happy to know that the owner has surrendered. Weber isnt coming out with a carb. setup for the next few months soooo, he is gonna go on the trip with the F.I. working.
Now all I have to do is replace hoses and repair electrical connections.
I am stoked. Ok, off I go to the tech. artical I saw on hose length and size. You guys have been great.

.....Hmmm. I ran a single carb type four for over 60,000 miles on a hard working VW Bus engine and then switched to dual carbs and it was running for another 20,000 and was still running great when I sold it. So guess the bus manifold was getting hot enough?

I think, from what I've heard, you are the exception, not the rule... the single carb setup will work, but everything I've ever heard is that you won't get enough gas, and what gas you get won't atomize well because the manifolds don't get warm enough near the carb itself... and by wear quickly, I'm not talking type 1 20k miles/rebuild quick... the type 4 will last a long time... very tough little engines.

I have a single carb setup if someone wants it, but I don't recommend it... the 1.8 it was on could have had it's own issues, but the single carb didn't help. I haven't torn into it to see HOW bad it really is, but I'm betting money the heads are toast... a 914 engine running rich will run cooler than one running lean...

Bus != 914...

If the FI harness is in really bad shape, give Jeff Bowlsby a yell. http://members.rennlist.com/914_wiring_harnesses

--DD

Regarding webers...

Yup, pretty much in agreement with the rest. If the motor is stock, the best you can do (for longevity, economy, power, and reliability) is the stock FI. It hasn't lasted 30+ years for no reason.

As for the webers themselves? Weber is beyond chapter 11, they are no more. Buying new -webers- will be an excercise. However, EMPI is flooding the market with chinese knockoffs. I don't know how good they are, but they've seriously depressed the value of webers from what I've found... They're cheap...

-Josh2

I ran a single carb setup on my 72 bus and what a hassle. The icing up of the steel runners, hard cold running and all of the pain wasn't worth it. Now maybe in Boony Doon its plenty warm so it didnt happened much to you, but here in the NW I would never ever run that again. On cold mornings, I would start up the bus and let it warm up and then turn it off for 5 minutes so the runner could soak up the heat. Otherwise, ice would form on them and the bus would die and you were stuck for 5 minutes.

Weber 44 idf
 

I need recommended jetting for a pair of weber 44 idf's on a 2.0 motor, european mahle p/c, cam.

thank you.

I also have a 1979 VW convertible with the stock FI. It has been absolutely trouble free. When my fuel injector hoses started to leak, I replaced them with the high pressure hoses, similar to what pelican sells. The smooth stuff, not the cloth covered stuff, and secured it with the original hose clamps(they are far superior to what you get at an auto parts store, perhaps still available through VW or Porsche dealer, though I doubt it, AC VW is a bastard child to VW now). It still has all the original injection parts, except for the hoses, seals and fuel filter. I replaced the fuel pump recently and I expect the thing will go another 27 years. I have driven the car from California to Nebraska, on another trip to Albuquerque from Sacramento and several times to LA, Oregon. The only problem with the original fuel injection is that it prevents me from putting a larger engine in the car,which dual carbs would work well with, even with the stock 1600, it could stand a little more fuel. 50 horsepower in a car that weighs close to what a 914 does is just not fun. I had intended to put a 2.0 liter type IV in it, but they changed the smog laws and made it so I almost certainly could not do it. Selling it to buy a stock, 2.0 914. Electronic ignition is nice because you eliminate the mechanical parts that can fail, no more dwell, ever.