Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 914 & 914-6 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Posts: 4
914 engine building

I am just in the planning stages for rebuilding my 2.0L motor. My goal is to have a QUALITY street motor that I can autocross on the weekends and not have to rebuild every 6 months. I am going to carburate it. (I can see the "You are a Fool" mail coming already)

My purpose here is to create a folder to collect various ideas on this subject. What is your advice? What combination of piston/cam/compression ratios/head work/carbs have you found work? More importantly- what have you found that does NOT work.

I know pelican has a tech-ref article about this....but what else can you add?

What kinds of machine shop work do you recommend...valve springs...lifters...ignition systems? How light of a flywheel is appropriate for a street-autocross-big grins-fun car.

Has anyone yet tried the 6-stud system that Mark Stephens has come up with? It uses 104mm pistons. That seems pretty big. Can the stock heads and case handle this...even with extensive internal balancing?

It would be nice if there was a good book about rebuilding type 4 motors. Is there? I am currently reading the VW rebuild manual by Tom Wilson. It has been very helpful. I would recommend it.

I hope this folder will help others who are in the same situation I am in. I know there is a LOT of different opinions about this. Thanks for the input. I look forward to hearing from EVERYONE.

Thanks, Greg Smith

I bought my 75 914 about two years ago. For the record- I still think it is pretty ugly.....but man do i enjoy driving this car! What a strange fascination we all have.
Old 10-20-1998, 01:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Dade County, FL.
Posts: 1,145
Send a message via AIM to JP Noonan
Look at Hot VW's and Dune Buggies, once every couple of years they put out an engine building special. Look at their back issues. It is mostly Type-I stuff (most of which still apply to other Types) but there are some general articles about Type-IV motors and an article on a Fats Performance 2.8 build up. You can also try calling Fats, see if maybe they have reprints they can send you.

BTW I hate those 75-76 rubber baby buggy bumoers too. Still don't believe I turned down a 74 Vette (project car) for a German Fiat, but I do love my 914.

Kudos about the Tom Wilson book, next best thing to the factory manuals. The Muir book "How to keep your VW alive for the complete idiot" isn't as helpful. Neither is the "How to hot rod your air cooled VW". The "VW Interchange" book that Borders sells is O.K. but Tom Wilson's book has almost all the pertinate 914 info in it.

Lash books puts out a 914 book that I have found more technical than the Haynes manual, more engine tolerances and stuff like that.

However there is one thing I have noticed about the Lash, Wilson, Haynes, and NAPA engine catalogs. They don't always agree. I guess this is due to updates from VW that make it into some of the books and not others. My best advice is to have a shop that specializes in aircolled VW's, and have them do the all the work. Trying to save money by have different shops do different work is a bad idea.

One web site that had possibly the best advice I have ever seen was "The Sermons of Bob Hoover" on Type2.com. Unfortunately for some unknown reason he received so much flame mail he took the page off. Look at the Type2 mailing list because there is talk of putting the Sermons on CD.

As for little secrets, one I've discussed with others on the net is that 2.0L get bad oil pressure, even compared to 1.7L and 1.8L motors which aren't great. First the Melling Hi-po oil pump needs to be modified to fit 914 motors. Second some of these pumps fit too loose in their bore (a common problem with type-I filter/pumps). If the fit is loose then pressure escapes around the pump and into the sump.

Personally I have nothing against carbs as long as you plan on them from the begining. People run into problems when they A) Don't have a cohesive or realistic plan. Like a 3.8L 4 banger with 30 MPG and as a daily driver. or B) Don't have a realistic budget and time frame. $1500=2 years, $5000=2 months.

Jet the carbs rich, change the oil every 1500, make sure ALL the tinware and gaskets are in place, maybe an oil cooler with a thermostat, and a SANE redline. You should have a happy motor for a long time. Another thing that kills aircooled motors is exhaust leaks at the heads (cracks them)and being dirty (dirt insulates the motor).
Old 10-20-1998, 02:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Posts: 4
That's It !!
One reply. Very Sad.
At first i was worried that my subject was a little too big. All the carb/cam/lifters/headwork questions people had could fit into this one simple folder. I guess not. No advice- tips, tricks, experiences to share...nothing. I do not believe it.

thanks jp for your input. i very much appreciate it.
Old 11-12-1998, 01:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
John Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: chula vista ca usa
Posts: 5,208
The engine in our 1974 is 2.2L and has the following: ported and polished heads, Web hydralic cam, lifters and push rods. The case was machined/cleaned for better oil flow and has inserts for all studs and the crank was balanced. It has the stock injection system as required in CA and revs to 6000 with no trouble. The flywheel is not lightened but it has a heavy duty clutch. Our daughter drives it everyday to school an we do about an autox a month or so. Some web sites to check are:
http://www.ismi.net/riecherttuning/
http://www.motormeister.com/
http://home1.gte.net/nugentmd/914lite.htm
http://www.olywa.net/triad/
http://www.cbperformance.com/
http://www.performancemarket.com/contents.htm
and of course
http://www.pelicanparts.com/
Remember, as it gets bigger, it runs hotter and the load on that 901 ransmission goes up so reliability goes down.
Old 11-13-1998, 06:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Dave at Pelican Parts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Silly-Con Valley
Posts: 14,063
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Dave at Pelican Parts Send a message via Yahoo to Dave at Pelican Parts
Since we don't seem to have too many people chiming in who actually have experience with building these, I'll chime in with second-hand accounts, guesses, and a big fat dream.

There are literally dozens of things you can do to a Type IV to make it go fast. You rule out a bunch of them when you say that you want a "QUALITY" streetable (and one assumes durable) 2.0.

First option--dead stock. You know exactly what you're getting, and it's relatively cheap. Especially if you start with a stock 2.0 motor already--and then it's FREE!

Next option--warmed-over. Euro P&Cs and/or flycut heads. Compression (determined by MEASURING all the bits, not by adding the "should be" guesses) of 8.0:1 - 8.5:1 or so. Mild cam such as FAT HP-440. Port and polished heads. HD valve springs, redline ~250+ higher than stock. Several pounds removed from flywheel. Rotating mass all balanced. Keep the FI or change to carbs/other, SSI exhaust and Bursch. Dump the points, put in Pertronix or Crane.

Next option--zoomie street. Euro P&Cs AND flycut heads, compression measured at 9.0:1 - 9.5:1, running super high-octane fuel ONLY. (Maybe with octane boost, you'll have to experiment.) Moderately-aggressive cam. Port and polished heads, bigger valves, bench-flowed. Carbs or aftermarket EFI, Garretson headers or Kerry Hunter headers and Bursch/Supertrapps/etc. hi-po muffler. Heads CCd to IDENTICAL volumes, all moving parts carefully balanced. Lightweight flywheel. HD valve springs, redline ~6250+ RPM. Thorough instrumentation (head temps on BOTH sides, mixture meters, knock sensors, etc.) to tell you if you're getting too warm; 911 fan setup if you are. Oil cooler mandatory, front-mounted preferred. Electronic ignition (Pertronix, Crane, other), possibly with hi-po coil and larger plug gaps.

Next option--big bucks. Compression 9.5:1 or more. (Just run it on Octane Boost all the time.) Trick coatings on EVERYTHING--combustion chambers, piston tops, oil shed inside the sump, that funky nodular chromium stuff Dirk Wright is always talking about, etc., etc., etc. Chambers DEAD even, big valves, ported, polished, yadda yadda. Everything balanced within an inch of its life. Carillo rods, Scat crank, hypereutetic lightweight pistons, tool steel wrist pins, everything that moves is as lightweight and strong as possible. Possibly dual valve springs, or "Quad Four" springs--redline 7000+ RPM. 9-lb flywheel. Piston squirters, possibly even somethig to squirt oil on the HEADS. Spark plug holes welded up and re-drilled for smaller-diameter plug. (Leaves more material in head for heat dissipation.) Electromotive DME setup w/crank fire ignition, O2 sensors, etc. Aggressive cam. K-H or Garretson headers and high-flow muffler of some kind. 911 fan setup and front-mounted oil cooler. Just BARELY streetable, but BOY would it go!!!

And there are lots of steps in between. Izzat enough possibilities?

--DD

[This message has been edited by Dave_Darling.]
Old 11-13-1998, 01:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Dade County, FL.
Posts: 1,145
Send a message via AIM to JP Noonan
To John Rogers: I've heard good things about CB Performance and Fats, however I've read on the 914 Club page forum some very BAD things about Motor Meisters, and also about random local machine shops. Common factors between the bad ones seem to be....

Unrealistic low price, I think MM quotes something rediculous like $1200-$1800 for a "complete" 2.0L rebuild with new everything and all machine work. This either results in substandard parts, unusable parts being reused, or (what usally happens at small shops that don't have alot of experience with type-IV motors) a larger bill at the end than was originally quoted. A shop used to rebuilding type-I motors can under bid by 200-300%, type-I's are much cheaper.

Sooooo find a shop with 1) experience 2) references. At the very least get a detailed quote in writing, itemized by machine process (i.e. valve job $20 per head with used vavles or $120 per side with new intake SS valves part # 213-8970x @$30 and exh part # ......) so that at the end the machinest can't say "Well it cost me more than I thought, so it will cost you more" (meanwhile the guy has your entire motor apart in little boxes all over the shop, so basically he has you by the short and curlies). Another good idea is having one shop do the whole engine, that way if the motor blows the shop can be held responsable and can't pass the buck.
Old 11-13-1998, 03:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
John Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: chula vista ca usa
Posts: 5,208
Thanks JP, you're right. You have to be VERY careful in looking for a shop. I agree with the idea of one shop doing it all. But, you have to remember, they can't see inside the engine so the estimate on "internals" may and probably have to be revised. I would rather have the estimate too high, but that usually never happens. I am very lucky as I live in San Diego area and we have a lot of good shops to deal with and I pitty those who live in places where there is one or none. Still, we have to be careful of hot parts and shoddy workmanship. remember, always ask for some references and talk to real customers before you decide.
Old 11-14-1998, 05:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Posts: 4
Thanks for the insight.

Another couple questions:
Is align-boring a normal process or is it purely based on wear/condition of the block?
What is really involved in engine balancing- what kinds of questions should i be asking?
Why is there such huge price differences in dual Weber 40idf kits from one place to another- you will see some kits from $550 and others $1000+...I cannot believe there is that much difference in the linkages and manifolds?

Old 11-16-1998, 01:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
John Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: chula vista ca usa
Posts: 5,208
Sounds like you need a reference book or two such as the Engine Builder's Handbook by Monroe or any other book that can explain in some detail what all the engine rebuilding terms mean and what their advantages/ disadvantages are. Usually any type of machining will cost money and you need to figure if the work will be worth it. This comes from finding someone or a shop you can trust. As an example usually getting an engine balanced if it will not be reved hi may not be worth the cost, but if the balancing lets the engine run another 20k to 30k miles, yes I'd do it.
Old 11-16-1998, 02:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Dave at Pelican Parts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Silly-Con Valley
Posts: 14,063
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Dave at Pelican Parts Send a message via Yahoo to Dave at Pelican Parts
I've heard several different theories on align-boring.

A lot of the Type I guys do it simply as a matter of course. Every rebuild means align-boring the case. Part of this is due to the (relatively) weak supports for the main bearings.

At least some of the 914/Type IV guys NEVER align-bore the Type IV cases. One of them once told me that if the case actually needs align-boring, throw it out and buy another case. He was kind of known for overkill on some things, though. However, the oversize bearings were a bit tough to find, so I'd guess that not all that many Type IV cases do get bored.

Other Type IV people have said that it's fine to align-bore the case if it needs it. I don't remember any Type IV-specific people who recommended just doing it without checking first.

Based on that, I'd say get it measured first. If it needs it, either buy another case or get the boring done. Check into the price of the bearings first, though--they may be somewhat expensive.

--DD
Old 11-17-1998, 09:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Posts: 3
I had Motor Meister do my 2.0. What a joke!!
They took forever to complete it, when I asked why they said 'we can't find the guy who's doing your engine, we think he went to Mexico'. Like an idiot I paid for engine and took it home. Only when I put it in did I notice that they had installed the heads on the wrong sides, my head temp sensor was on the driver's side of the engine. Their response 'it makes no difference'. When I asked why it was put together that way, they responded 'he must have been drunk or hung over' and 'well, it will take a month or so to fix it because we're really busy. I should have returned it but I didn't want them to touch it again.
Old 11-23-1998, 06:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Posts: 4
FYI:

http://www.markstephenshp.com/

new site-
Old 02-10-1999, 12:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: corpus christi tx
Posts: 4
Anybody have any experience with Mark Stephens HP.
Doug
Old 02-17-1999, 09:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:50 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.