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Efrain68912's Avatar
 
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Hot 914 street engine

I'm wondering as to how hot one could make a 914 engine and keep it liveable for the street. A buddy of mine said it could be stroked to 3 liters; I prefer short stroke/big bore for the quick revs. I ask because I am considering swapping a type 4 engine into my 912 next summer, and he wants a 914.

Thanks in advance.

Efrain
68 912 Coupe
Old 11-15-2001, 02:45 PM
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Define livable......

One that you can drive every day and last 50,000 miles?

One that you can drive MOST days and last 30K

One that you can drive on weekends, takes 10 minutes to warm up and last 10-15K?
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Old 11-15-2001, 03:15 PM
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I do not think you can go to a 3.0 this guy can help you out..
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Old 11-15-2001, 04:21 PM
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One I can drive everyday and last a long time. I don't want a hand grenade, just a good amount of power.

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Old 11-15-2001, 10:05 PM
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You can go up to 3.0 liters. It's been done. You don't want to, though--it's a major pain to do, costs an improbable amount of money, and doesn't last too much longer than a single race.

For a good power boost with near-stock reliability, Raby's favorite 2270cc (96 bore X 78 stroke) appears to be a good choice. He is routinely getting about 150 HP out of these, and they seem to be on the way to lasting. One of them made 160 HP at the wheels of a Bug conversion--which is probably 180+ at the crank. They ain't cheap, but part of the reason they last is the time taken to pay attention to all of the details.

--DD
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Old 11-16-2001, 08:34 AM
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I just recently installed a Jake Raby 2270 in my 914. It has dual 45 dells and a compufire distributorless ignition. This engine is great, every bit as driveable as the carbureted stock 1.8 engine that it replaced. The torque in the 3000-4500 rpm range is so strong I can easily break the rear end loose in 2nd and 3rd gear turns even with sticky 245/45 - 16 tires. I'll be running some PCA drivers ed's this spring and I'm expecting the car to be a whole lot more fun.
Old 11-19-2001, 09:04 AM
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Just a thought.......for what the Raby 2270 costs, you could drop in a 2.0 or 2.2 -6. I think Motormeister sells a complete conversion kit including engine, mounts, etc etc. The price is in the same ball park as Raby's base 2270 (with no induction or ignition - I believe), and the HP numbers are very similar too (dunno about torque...). Plus you get the added bonus of a six! There is a bit more work than just 'dropping in the -4, but.........

Caveats.....

This is not meant to be a slam on Raby, I understand his stuff is REALLY good. Just another angle......

I haven't dealt with them and I have heard stories both way regarding their reputation. The only testamonial with proof that I can quote was a BIG positive for them. Just my .02 cents worth.

Craig.
Old 11-19-2001, 02:49 PM
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OK,
.........TG< glad to see that engine is proving it's self.

The 2270 that I build is awesome, we are very proud of what it can do, when assembled with our combinations.

With the gearing of the 914, the stroke change will really wake up the acceleration, and will break the car loose if so, desired,just like TG says.

The 2270 is not really cheap, but neither are those hours of labor, and the time this engine has spent on the DYNO. Now with our new Stuska it will be getting even more time on the proving ground, and even more development.

It is true that a -6 conversion is about the same expense, however to properly address the 6 conversion means to update the brakes, and suspension. All of that to install an engine that is even tighter to work on in the 914, and has 2 more cylinders to fail.

I do some 911 work, but they are not my favorites, a T IV just fits so nicely in there, especially considering that TGm'S engine cools great with the STOCK cooling system!

It is hard tio beat a 2270, and a few of my 150HP specials have been able to smoke some -6 converted 914's too!!!!!!!
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Old 11-19-2001, 09:15 PM
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I will agree about the brake upgrades on a -6....but I don't think that is a valid point concerning the difference in doing a 2270 vs. a -6 conversion.....

150 HP - whether from a 2270 or a -6 is still 150 HP....so I would think that a teenr with your 2270 would still be a prime candidate for a brake upgrade.

You do have a point about the confines of the engine bay in a -6 versus the -4........it's bad enough to start with, but only seems to get a bit worse.....as to the extra 2 cylinders decreasing the reliability.......well the 911 -6s are a pretty well developed and reliable engine when properly taken care of and prepared.......witness all the endurance championships that those engines have taken....again I don't think that this is a valid point to consider when deciding between a big four and a -6.......

Point also taken about the 2270 beating a -6 and I don't doubt that it has-can-will occur. But remember that a stock 2.0 -6 only has 110HP on tap..........and the numbers only go up from there....I think 225HP from a 3.0 is a good starting place.......
Old 11-19-2001, 11:36 PM
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Question Big 4

I'm gonna try a 78X100 stroker. As Cat Stevens sang, "I'm on my way to find out.....," - - -
Old 11-20-2001, 05:31 AM
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A few points to think about, presented in no particular order.


If you want to do a quality job, a Six conversion is going to cost more than a Raby motor. Frankly, I'm not that wild about the MM kit...

The cheapest MM conversion seems to be a 145 HP Six for $6500. Last I checked, a 150+ HP 2270 was somewhere in the neighborhood of $5000. You do the math... And that doesn't even start to count the ease of bolting in the four-cylinder versus some cutting-and-pasting for the six.

The cheapest quality conversion that I know of was done by Brad R over on the Rennlist. He did a lot of wheeling and dealing, and wound up with a 72 chassis with the 110 HP 2.0 911T motor and so on. Ran him between $5000 and $7000. Stock wheels and brakes, no other upgrades. Plus an old, tired, used motor that was going to need some help in another couple of years.

The six-cylinder installations are heavier than the four-cylinder. That's why a buddy's 914-4 racer can spank almost every 914-6 he comes across. (That and the fact that he's an incredible driver.) That reduces, but does not eliminate, the need for the upgraded brakes in the four-cylinder version.

Any six-cylinder motor larger than the 2.7 requires extra parts when used in a 914. Either a custom-made flywheel has to be installed to fit in the 914 tranny, or a 915 tranny has to be bought and re-worked and installed. (Plus shift and clutch linkages worked out.)

But the four-cylinder will never have the sheer "coolness factor", or the incredible sound, of the six-cylinder.

If I had the room and the money, I'd have a 2270 and a 914-6.

--DD
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Old 11-20-2001, 07:31 AM
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Go To 911 forum and read post about MM, they really took the guy to the cleaners. Steve
Old 11-20-2001, 08:41 AM
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Big 4s, sixers & sounds

I hang with Raby. He gets the money he deserves for the development and time. When I built SCCA racing engines, I spent 24 - 48+ hours just assembling an engine. Most of the time was assembly, measurement, disassembly, reassembly, measurement, etc..,. What do you get paid per hour? I haven't even broached the parts cost or development time (considerable).

Don't want to spend $5000.00? Do what I do ~ ask questions, buy the parts and assemble it yourself. The errors will cost you money, but in the end, you'll eventually get where you want to go (it took me 12 engines).

Now Dave, I respect you a lot, but for the "pure sound"? Hell, buy a six if you want the sound or buy a damn tape recorder and mount speakers in the rear trunk lid (it's cheaper). You can have a flat 8 sound if you want. Yeh! I know the last is absurd and my intent is not to insult.

A 4 is a 4 and a 6 is a 6. There is nothing like the sound of a nasty 4.

Old 11-20-2001, 08:42 AM
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Personally, in my mind there's not much "overlap" between the /4 and /6 decision points.

I wouldn't do a /6 conversion (or buy one) unless it was over the 180hp mark, i.e. at least into 2.4S territory, or well beyond. More likely, in the 225-325hp region.

I don't know if a Type4 could touch that and survive for long, whereas 911 engines can, and do, often lasting 150,000-250,000 miles.

Bang for the buck, it sounds like a 130-150hp big-4 trounces the comparable 911 engine. If you have double the budget and want double the power, well then go with the /6.
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Old 11-20-2001, 08:55 AM
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I agree with Chris. No sense in doing a six conversion unless its at least 2.7. My research showed that doing the six would be about double what I paid for my Raby 2270. The MM prices seem ridiculous - a rebuilt 6, engine tin, carbs and exhaust for what a quality Type IV costs. The Type IV engine also allowed me to retain SS heat exchangers for these cold east coast winters.
Old 11-20-2001, 09:20 AM
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If not MM then where?

I was thinking of doing the MM 2.7L conversion. I realize the prices are high, but I haven't seen anything else to compare. Are there any other companies that sell a similar package?
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Old 11-20-2001, 04:17 PM
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hot 914

Quote:
Originally posted by campbellcj
Personally, in my mind there's not much "overlap" between the /4 and /6 decision points.

I wouldn't do a /6 conversion (or buy one) unless it was over the 180hp mark, i.e. at least into 2.4S territory, or well beyond. More likely, in the 225-325hp region.

I don't know if a Type4 could touch that and survive for long, whereas 911 engines can, and do, often lasting 150,000-250,000 miles.

Bang for the buck, it sounds like a 130-150hp big-4 trounces the comparable 911 engine. If you have double the budget and want double the power, well then go with the /6.
Old 11-20-2001, 06:52 PM
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Anyone who has built a stroker VW engine knows what issues are present. It is a pure pain.

I mock engines up sometimes 5-6 times, get specs and numbers before it ever gets any assembly at all. It is a must to double and triple check everything. Our normal assembly takes 34 hours of labor, including balance work, clearancing, and etc. This does NOT include any DYNO time, which has been on average of 3-5 hours per engine. All divided up, my 1,500.00 labor charge makes me 44 bucks an hour.

These engines are not easy to work on, to get right the first time. I have had customers assemble an engine as much as 11 times, only to still have it fail!

Having driven 914's with 2270s, and -6 conversions, and even a small block chevy converted car I only wanted the 2270 more..

Thw 2270 is hard to beat, and some cannot beat it. This engine REALLY wakes up the 914, and believe me, if cost is an issue, stay stock!
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Old 11-20-2001, 08:15 PM
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TGM,

Good to hear that you are happy with your Raby 2270, because I've been considering one. I was interested to read that you use SS heat exchangers. I have been wondering if these would flow well enough for a 2270. What type muffler are you using? Also, are you using an additional external oil cooler? Or any other cooling modifications?

Thanks,
Mike
Old 11-21-2001, 04:44 AM
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Maf914,

I am using a Bursch system with their glass pack muffler. Sounds great, maybe a little loud for some though. My understanding is that the Type IV heads are the limiting factor when it comes to flow so the SS heat exchangers are ok. I have an external B&M cooler with Perma Cool fan located to the right of the transmission mounted parallel to the trunk floor. The fan is thermostatically controlled with a switch on the oil temp sender plate in the engine sump. I mounted the oil filter in the engine compartment. Other than that, I am using stock fan shroud with stock cooler. So far I have only run in moderate temps but once the fan kicks on the oil temp stabilizes around 190.

T.G.
Old 11-21-2001, 07:06 AM
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