Mike's posts are good too.

Hello

Yes in the 60´s GM was a inovative company, just recall the Tempest had a transaxle setup and the Corvair a flat 6 rear engine. Some guys like Duntov, Lapine, Lorean tried to fight the imports with technology. Even Ford made some moves. The first Mustang was a midengine 4.

This was the last time detroit tried to keep up in technology and they made some misstakes ( unsafe at any speed ? ) not understanding why european cars invest more time in engeneering then in designing and they also never understand why european cars did work so good. They just replicatet them bigger and overblowed the problems as well without knowing that or the ability to handle that.

The Buick Aluminiumengines where to sophisticatet and had some fatal missengeneering ( the brits needed some years to fix that ).

Hell even the top of the line ZL1 engines for race cars died faster then they could be raced.

General line there is no "cheap" power either way you go. The american way is only working becourse US rules will allow a unbalanced car for street use and so you don´t have to invest in other upgrades then the big engine and the souround that will hold it in the car. You don´thave to pass any technical inspection where the design and the quality from the craftsmanship has to be profed.

There is always the general problem in discussing these issues as everyone has other ways to definate a better car.

Some people are satisfied if they just can accelerate faster then everyone else and use a parachute to break down from the high speeds. Others like to drive fast on all those winding backroads and enjoy the thrill to have allways power for a fourwheeldrift or a powerslide and enough grunt to overtake other cars at speeds bejound 100 mph.
Both guys love power but this is like figthing with a Broadsword against a Katana. So we are both brothers in arms as both wheapons can kill. But need other technice and guys a Samuari will mostly kill a broadsworder by just not being there when the strike comes but leave the sharp knife and let him run against that using his own force to slice him nice.
The deeper story behind that is to complicatet to explain.

@DDS will love that. Had seen your Lotus thread but If I say the Europa is much better then the 914 as long you are dwarf sized ( to enter it and fit in there ) and willing to recunstruct the cars bad corners count in as welcomed from the ownership. The 914 costumer and the Europa costumer wher divided when the bought there car.
Lotus was known for fast puzzle boxes and Porsche was known for not so fast but nice and reliable sportscars. The Europa was a step into mass production like Porsche did when they moved from Austria to Stuttgart. Yet Lotus never had time to make hisstreetcars work as he was only interesstet in raceing ( like Ferrarias well ). He just needed the money to invest into Formula 1.
Porsche on the other hand was allways interesstet improving the costumer car and make it able for every costumer to be competive on the race events while using the daily driver.
When Porsche was involved in Formula 2 and scored some wins they steped up to Formula 1. but they gave it up as they didn´t see the costs or the parts where rewared into the costumers cars. So the Formula 1 divison was focused to make something usefull for streetuse and that was the 911. The last time that happend the Mc Larren F1 was born.

BTW Other good candidates for speed thrill are the Renault 110 Alpine´s. 130 HP make a 160 HP 911 shrink in the mirror.

Grüsse

When ever the v8 conversion topic comes up there are several opinions, here is what I found:
The 901 will live with 400 + HP including leaving 1st gear in place, you never ever abuse the car in that gear. When doing this conversion with the stock transaxle, destroke the motor shorten the cam lift and lengthen the duration, do everything you can to move the torque curve up the rpm range. In short make you can the motor have similar characteristics of the stock motor. If you don't than plan on several thousand dollars to convert the transaxle to a 930. In these conversion the money can go into the motor or the transaxle in my case I chose the motor.
Suspension, use a the 911 SC front end with the sway bar, make sure the brakes are adequate for the way you drive, Brembo mono blocks work well but you have to convert to 16 inch wheels. Go with 200lb rear springs, flare the rear fenders so you can enlarge the contact area of the tires.
A properly converted 14 will run 4 sec 0 to 60 go 0 to 100 and back to 0 in 10 secs and out handle its rear engine brothers. But a correct conversion is not cheap, and a cheap conversion will probably disapoint the owner.

I have a friend who has installed a V8 into his 911. He has done a great job, but it still working out some of the bugs. This process is not cheap by any means. Sure the SBC may start out cheap, but generating HP is big $$$. The whole frabrication thing with cooling etc can also be an expensive venture. Also, as one generates more HP from a SBC, the life of the motor goes way down. Another concern for the track, oil pick-up may be a problem on a long sweeper.

IMHO, V8 conversions have been done cheaply, they have been done well, but I don't think they can be done well and cheaply.

If the question is dollars and sense, nothing about these cars is cheap, and good work of any kind sure isn't. This brings us back to Mikez's point about buying someone elses's project. Here in Canada where teeners are rare, freight is expensive and the CDN dollar is low, it may make more sense to do the work vs import a car, even then it costs lots of money.
One of you California guys ought to offer a 'teener sourcing service - If I wanted to buy one, I'd have to fly down and tour the countryside hoping to find the right car on that trip. Big cost vs value of the car. In retrospect, I should have been patient and arranged with one of you guys to find one for me.
@Roland
at a long legged 6' tall, I can fit in the Lotus very comfortably, moreso than in a 'teener with a stock dia steering wheel. A friend who is slightly taller but shorter of leg hits his head on the roof. Not sure I'd think of the lotus as a Samurai sword... Maybe a very well prepped Ginsu.
The balance thing you refer to is very true, but there is more underlying American car design 'culture' than the brute force mentality. You know that roads here at least are comparatively long, wide, and straight, distances are long and summers are very hot, winters are very cold and fuel has always been relatively cheap. Cars that handle and brake well are generally not required for daily driving the way they are in europe. Gobbling up long boring distances in comfort is more desireable for most. A car that does both well costs big bucks. (The european perception of what constitutes a long drive amazes me when Europeans come to Canada to visit - everything is far here).
Better to compare the inexpensive daily driver on both continents. I wouldn't want to have to use a 2CV here for any length of time and everthing inexpensive and Italian, French or British failed miserably here 'cause their products were pretty marginal for the climate and driving conditions. Germans and Swedes fared better, though with the exception of VW, the cars were never cheap.
I say this not to excuse the mostly awful cars the big three have created, - (they badly needed the wake-up call from the Japanese) only to suggest other reasons why things evolved the way they did.
IMO, the base model 5.0 mustang (early '80s) was one of of the worst examples of the kind of thinking you describe. You have to admit though, the Corvette sure has come a long way.

Better get to work now.

Grusse.

Small hint, Dave. Click on that "email" icon in the reply immediately prior to yours. MikeZ lives near an area where 914s are very common, relatively speaking, and don't suffer much from the weather.

--DD

Hey Dave/DDS....I've been known to find a few cars and send them north and east from here....:D

NOW you tell me! I bought two 'teeners, (we) conceived then had twins then I bought the lotus so I don't think there will be more cars (or kids) in the near future. I'm going to pass Mike's email address on to someone though. If I'd been involved in this BBS before buying the first teener, I'd have bought it in the southwest for sure.

Hey that last bit is pretty well back on topic.

Everyone (almost) says that if you put a V8 in a 914 you have to upgrade the brakes because of the added weight.
No one says that if you plan to carry a passenger that weighs more than 200 lbs. you must upgrade the brakes.
Why is that? Just another case of an urban 914 myth being passed down through the masses.
Upgrading the brakes is a good idea on any 914, but is no more manditory on a V8 914 that a stock 914.
If the stock brakes are in perfect order, they work well. If they are not in good mechanical condition, you need to fix them.

Legal disclaimer: if you drive like an idiot you need to upgrade the brakes, with either a V8 or a type 4.
The brakes will not allow you to get away with driving stupid forever, but may buy you some time :-)

Roland wrote: "Hell even the top of the line ZL1 engines for race cars died faster then they could be raced."

Kinda' like the Boxster and 996 engines that Porsche makes today, eh? Oh, that's right, they do make a race motor for the 996.

It is my opinion that Porsche quit F1 racing when they did because they realized they were stuck with a 2 valve air cooled engine and couldn't get enough power out of it. No cure, such development over design, as found on the 911. The TAG engine of a later era was water cooled, of course.

As for the general state of American engineering, get a grip.
We do what we need or want to do. If Bill Gates was to fund an an all american F1 team, I have no doubt that it would be a winner in 3 or 4 years.

You fellas apparently needed help from the French and Brits to make a decent jet airliner. Boorish of me to bring it up, isn't it?

Having said that, there's only one flag on the moon and it was put there 25 years ago.......with a bit of help from a few Germans :-).

JP, you provocateur! 'a bit of help from a few Germans'? I almost took the bait. Bill Gates F1 program?
Teed up nicely. Very funny.
I though the UK was the home of ironic humour.

Hello

@sammyg2

OK thats a american view but it is a difference if you have to brake down from 200 km/h or 250 km/h

It is a difference if you have a curb wight from 950 Kg to a curb wight from 1200 kg and if you can accelerate the 1/4 within 14 instead 17 secounds you also have more force to brake down while you sorten the time for the brake to vent the heat out.

The 914/4 brake system is good enough for a full loaded car ( According to the specs total wight ) and blast down the alps.
If you are down Timmersjoch the brakes do smell hot and you need to drive them cool but they are not starting to fade if you know how to use them.

So as people in the US are not allowed to exceed 65 mph nor have twisting passes in there mountains any investment into the brakesystem is wastet money. I even think that the car will still outbreak many other cars and SUV produced today.

The story is very simple; Big horses can bring you faster into trouble and good brakes are the only thing that will bring you out of it.
Thtas why Porsche always had the best aviable brakes on there cars. In 1969 a 4 disc brakesystem wasn´t typical for a small sportscar. Nowerdays this is standard.

One fact is that a good prepped 914/4 brake system will work from average speed like a big red system. The only benefit from the big brakes is there higher heat capasity and this counts if you are braking down from high speed or have to turn more energy into heat.

BTW the 914/6 is some 50 kg heavier and has 110 HP witch is some 10 HP more to the Row 2,0. Topspeed is some 10 km/h faster and Porsche used bigger ventet brakes and even slight bigger pistons/pads on rear. Porsche must have been grazy ?
Scared that Poeple drive ther 914 like a Porsche ?
Thats only a 50 kg/ 10 km/h upstep. A good V8 is some 100 kg plus 50 km/h upstep.

@J P Stein

Kinda' like the Boxster and 996 engines that Porsche makes today, eh? Oh, that's right, they do make a race motor for the 996.

The GM ZL1 engines where built for racecars and not very much hit the roads ( I think 25 vettes and 52 Camaros ). So those had been production specials. They failed becourse they where just copied steel blocks. Anyhow noone was expecting that a race engine should live long. It should win and if wight is a problem and you always in the middle or end row you have to make a step forward. If you have speed then you look to fix the other problems.

A comperable Porsches would be the 911 RS or 911 GT3 ?

Yet the 996 GT3 and the Turbo actually don´t use the same engine like the normal 996. Porsche makes very special engines for those cars, full alluminium, dry sump and those engines are blowing up all the time. Sure becourse its still the old junk they use since the first 911.

The reason why Porsche isn´t racing with the Lokasil are very difficult. Fact is That Porsche is still developing a race engine from that block but they are lazy becourse the old engine is still competive ( was untill the BMW V8 came ) and the engeneering works on other projects ( Audis, Bentleys, maybe the SUV ? )

It is my opinion that Porsche quit F1 racing when they did because they realized they were stuck with a 2 valve air cooled engine and couldn't get enough power out of it. No cure, such development over design, as found on the 911. The TAG engine of a later era was water cooled, of course.

Maybe thats one reason. Porsche had very deep knowledge into 4 valve engines and just look at the old constructions Porsche made for Mercedes and later for Auto Union. 4 valve Luiquidcooled.

Like saíd the main reason was that Dr. Porsche didn´t like to spend money into a race car without the chance that the parts used there will have a direct benefit for the production cars. He liked more the idear that the wining car could be beought next moday in the next showroom. The F1 cars needed complete other engeneered chassis and also many other things turned into very specialized items. The 8 Cyl wasn´t a problem. Still had enough power and the race driver could switch off the alternator and the fan to gain some 50 HP for several secounds.

I think if you read some books about that you will see that Porsche did quit for many reasons but not becourse they feared to loose. I think Dr Porsche didn´t liked the monoposto races personaly. In the first years Porsche was in the Formula 2 and used the RSK to compete with lighter monopostos. Those cars scored several wins and when a guy named von trips mastered a laptime 2 secounds under the time from Fangio in a Maserati ( the RSK had the new 150 HP engine ) they focused onto geting into F1 buy just blowing up the Chassis and engeneer a competive flat 8. Those cars wher constructet to last longer then the competition and the old Porsche tactic was to hunt them untill they broke. Well the Coopers wher good candidates untill one day a guy named Bruce Mc Larren manged to make a lasting Cooper. Well i think i could write a book about it but Ludvigsen allready made one.
Maybe you can ask some old american F1 race drivers who where in the Porsche team about the backgrounds.


As for the general state of American engineering, get a grip.
We do what we need or want to do. If Bill Gates was to fund an an all american F1 team, I have no doubt that it would be a winner in 3 or 4 years.


OK the leading wining engine in Formula 1 is a Ford V8, tell me more about that engine ;).
I would welcome Mr. Gates to make a all american race team the problem is that american racedrivers don´t like to drive all around the world and Ford is allready in the biz since years and Ford wasn´t short on money witch is maybe a part why Nasser had to go. If you analyze the backgrounds...

The best would be Bill buys a competive raceteam and asks Porsche to suppley the engines ;) There must be some american racedrivers out there. There is a young man maybe around 15 years who maybe will bring the US to new glory. And his skin is much darker then Sennas. Tiger Woods on the race tracks !

You fellas apparently needed help from the French and Brits to make a decent jet airliner. Boorish of me to bring it up, isn't it?

Why ? thats europe. Everyone has given the best and engeneering plus production is shared. Thats a major throwback in making money plus the single parts must be built more precise then on a "normal" airplane. I don´t think that germany has to be the best or rule the world. I don´t think we have to live on a island.

BTW the Airbuscockpit is engeneered by Porsche. Most Pilots like the ergonomics but most don´t like to fly by wire and loose the board engeneerer..

The first flag on the moon ? Wasn´t that more then 30 years ago ? 25 years ago russia nd the US met in otherspace ( trading alcahol and porn magazines ? )

In fact many nations where involved into that project but the american tax payer gave the most money and the american nation burdend the load to fail so it is fair they raised there flag there. But like said a small step for a man but a giant step for mankind. Didn´t said a small step for a man but a giant step for america ?

It is time to think in other dimensions one day the "ferengis" will show up

Grüsse

I think the ZL1 wasn't a big mover (volume wise) because of the price. The option added around $4k (as I recall) to the price of the car....BIG bucks in 1969. It was a derivative of the L88 iron block....not many or them were sold, either. Why? Because they they were nearly undrivable on the street. Though rated at 435hp, actual
power was closer to 500hp. The 12:1 compression ratio was "edgy" for the street gas, even back then.

I built one (L88) for a friend back in 68'. Piecing a long block together, all from a Chevy dealer, the price was under $650 (iron heads). After market goodies to finish it off were under $200. A test drive in this 68 El Camaino showed that
one had to be very circumspect with applications of the go pedal.
WAAAAY to much power for that car and those tires.

As for the ZL1, it was good enough to win one European race in the Chaparral and do well in several more. They were let down by their transmission often, but seldom by their engine. AFAIK, Chaparral never used the Reynolds block.
McLaren used them to good effect in Can AM, also, but switched to the Reynolds block in search of more cubic inches.

Typically, the FIA banned banned the Ford and Chevy big bangers
from competition in their *world* championship events. Welcome to *our* world, just don't win.

I've read the "official" reasons for Porsches withdrawl from F1.
I've also read Dan Gurney's comments on the lack of power from the Porsche engine. Books are available on this side of the pond and some actually read them. That Porsche knew 4 valve technology is not in question, but that's not what they "brung to the dance".

The cam covers of the Cosworth F1 motor say "Ford" just like the Ilmore F1 cam covers say "Mercerdes-Benz"(sp?) :-), but used to say "Chevrolet" for CART :-).