914 cage

[Speedo959]

I plan on building a cage for my car, but before I start I want to know what I can and cannot do. I want it to pass inspection for any event that I enter, SCCA, PCA or whatever. How far can I go? What size tubing does it have to be? If there is no restrictions I plan on stiffening up the car as much as possible. I thought about buying one, but most of the fun is in doing it yourself!

[Joe Bob]

FTFRB...read the freaking rule book

If you are in Central Ca, and don't want to do it yourself.....there are few shops that specialize in installs....High Perfomance House has Brad Roberts. I here he is going out on his own and has a full time welder doing nothing but cages.

But if you DO IT yourself, get the specs from the rule book and/or talk to Brad.

Z

OOOPPPsssie, "R" is next to "F"

Should be RTFRB

[Speedo959]

FTFRB?

[John Rogers]

There are several choices for doing a cage. If you are going to construct it your self, get the SCCA's central office phone number and buy a cpy of the 2002 General Classification Rules (GCRs) and that spells out exactly how the cage is to be made I.E. type and size of tubing, mounting pts, inspection holes, welding, etc. Then get the tubing, strip out the interior and have a go at it. It has to be painted, etc and make sure that you have the type of tubing, sizes, etc on a reciept from the metals company. If you have one custom fabricated, the shop should supply the necessary paperwork for the tubing. A prefab cage is the third choice, which is what I used and I bought an AutoPower since they are here in the San Diego area and have a good reputation. The reciept lists the tubing, size, etc and they are an approved SCCA vendor (as are others). As for mounting the cage, most organizations max at 6 points and you must stay inside the interior box and not go through the front/rear bulkheads. If you do then you move into GT classes which means full carbon bodies, etc. Finally make sure the main loop is one piece and mounts to the body side boxes, not the floor for strength and that the car is exactly level when installing. Good luck.

[73914]

Doesnt the Autopower cage bolt to the floor? I am ripping mine out as we speak and having a custom cage installed.... Safety Devices is probably the best if you want to buy one pre-done and install yourself. Make sure you use reinforcement plates wherever you weld.

[jtf914]

I know I have the reciept from when my father ordered this roll cage back when he owned the car in the 80's(some company in Jersey). Steel adapter plates were welded into the body and then the cage was bolted to the plates. In order to get the targa top on with the cage, I had to remove the pad in the front of the top between the latches. It got in the way of operating the latches.




Justin

[J P Stein]

Dunno if I posted this pic before, but here's a pic on the Autopower cage in my car. It's a weld in and I've made a few mods to the instal details. I didn't like the idea of cutting open the longs to install the "backing plates".

The roof attach goodies all work.

[Racer Chris]

You guys driving around on the street with a full cage are nuts. Those things are only safe if you have a helmet and full harnesses on. If you are ever in a crash your skull will get broken, even with roll bar padding. The stock seat belts will not hold you adequately in place IMO.

Also, a note about welding a cage into a 914. If you don't want to have trouble with your doors follow this procedure: 1) Tack weld the reinforcing plates to the chassis. 2) Tack weld the entire cage. 3) Weld the upper joints and door bars. 4) Cut the tack welds between the cage and the mounting plates. At this point the cage will release with some force. 5) Now you can weld the tubes to the mounting plates. 6) Finally weld the perimeter of the mounting plates to the chassis. A lot of shrinkage occurs with this much welding, as you will see when you cut the tack welds to the mounting plates. If you don't follow this procedure the car will shrink at least 1/8", causing the doors to not close without lots of swearing. Additionally it is a good idea to support the car from the center of the rocker panels to offset any shrinkage that does occur.

[John Rogers]

Check the pictures in the articles here on PP, the Race Seatmount has the cage mounts in figure 10 and 12 and in the Race Car article it is in figure 15. I used a bolt together cage since I did not have the interior stripped and did not want to have to empty the car out to weld the tubes. My top fits on well and the latches are useable. Good luck.

[J P Stein]

I've been driving a car since I was 18.
I am now 56. Couldn't avoid 2 minor accidents in that time.
Many have tried to run into me , but only those 2 were sucessful. Gonna' go knock wood now......

I may have been dancing between the rain drops for all these years, but you, Chris, don't have the wherewithal to make a judgment here. However, since your opinion seems so important to you, I will make every attempt to keep my skull intact while driving. Should I fail, you can say "I tole' you so".
Careful with that pen, you could poke your eye out.

BTW, my doors work just fine....but it took some doin' on the pass side. Even a "nut" can handle that.

[914timo]

You seem to have very nice car, Mr John Rogers. I would like to see more pix from your cage. Especially where do you have joints in the cage and how they are made.
In the pictures posted by JTF914 (very nice car, too) there are evident joints between the main bar and the front bars. Are these good way to joint two bars together, or can you show better way to do it.
I have considered the cage too and I would like to have it bolted at the same reasons as Mr Rogers. For Racer Chris I can tell that I might have to add a cage. Otherwise the car wouldn´t be legal with my six here. The cage will compensate the steel roof the 916 models used to have. And, like JP Stein (who seems to have very nice car too), I think it will also increase safety. But, Racer Chris, you had very good opinion about the safty of the cages. I have never think it in that way. I like you comments about the welding as well. I will keep them in my mind while doing my cage.

regards,
Timo
http://members.rennlist.org/kirk/

[John Rogers]

Thanks for the comments. The cage has all the normal tubes, but there are sleves that go over the joints with two grade 8 bolts on each side of the joint. The way I installed mine was to block the car exactly level, remove the top, seats and carpet on the door sills and clean the area where the plates go. Then I installed the complete cage and held it together with racers tape and marked where the bolt plates would go. I then raised the cage and drilled the holes that the nuts on the bottom of the mount plates go into in the door sill area. I think they were 3/5 inch or close to that. I then lowered the cage and bolted it to the plates tight and tack welded the plates to the car in several places on each plate. After checking everything, I raised the cage and welded the plates in solid using welding blankets so I did not burn out the interior. Since my oil cooler lines run inside the right box I was very careful there. When the plates were done, I bolted the cage done tight and drilled all the other holes for the assembly bolts and tightened as I went. When all was done I took the cage out, cleaned all the metal chips and then preserved the areas and cage with POR-15. The next day (Sunday) I reassembled the cage and put in the seats, etc. It took about a full weekend since I did not want to rush and screw things up. The hardest holes to drill were the ones for bolting to the roll bar area behind my head since I had to be accurate. As I said there are several good brands of bolt/weld in cages and I picked Autopower since they have a good reputation and are local to me in San Diego. Good luck

[Speedo959]

Chris, I have thought about what you said too. It does make sense. The other day there was a huge pile up on the 99 exactly where I am everyday at 7:15. Two guys who are in my class at 8:00 were involved. I think it was something like 40 cars or something. Two people died and I would of most likely been in that accident too. For some strange reason though I woke up and said, "I need a haircut today I am staying home." I NEVER do that, I am always there. One of the cars from the photos I have seen was completely smashed between two semis, and from the looks of it my little 914 would of folded like a can. I was one of those drivers that would blast through at 80 thinking I could stop on a dime. After seeing that, I will take my chances with a cage along with driving a whole lot slower in the fog. Thanks for the tips on how to install the cage, and to all others that responded.

[Brad Roberts]

All very good points on the cages.

Do not forget SCCA only allows 80 some odd square inches on scab plating for the tubes.

I build all of our cages to be legal for SCCA and PCA. I have watched many people put cages in their cars for one particular class.. now your stuck trying to sell the car later to someone who wants to run that class.

My cages are designed with the future in mind. IE: moving up in classes by adding bars to the cage.

BTW. I get 8 points inside of a 914 without passing through the bulkheads.


Oh.. one more thing... If the cage is built for SCCA spec... your head wont be be anywhere near it when your driving the car.

http://www.all914.com/Roadracing/index.htm

[Brad Roberts]

I suck.

Door jigs gentleman.. door jigs. I remove the doors and bolt in place an adjustable jig fixture. I measure the car before we do anything.. and then bolt the jigs in place. They have adjusters built into them that allow me to preload the chassis.

Set the preload just past the measurement I took.

Do all of the welding (in one day) and let the car cool for one day. Remove the door jigs... works like a charm.

http://www.all914.com/projects/RichardH/914/pages/Mvc-624f.htm

[J P Stein]

Ah.....nice.
Where was that pic when I needed it?

The drivers side never moved during the welding process.....but the pass side....Had to cut loose a weld and took the car to a frame shop, bent the car and made the last welds while under stress. Could have avoided that with your gizmo....live and learn.

Could have hired a professional, also....but that's no "fun".

[Brad Roberts]

That's why I get paid to think. We charge 1400$ for a legal 8 point cage that gets completed in one day. People question me all the time why we charge this much.

1. We are fast (most fab shops will have your car a month)
2. We have been racing 914's for a very long time (we know where they are weak)

All these guy's thinking of doing their own cages need to visit a fab shop and help out one day. They will learn quickly how much physical labor goes into building a cage.

Bolt in cages make me puke... they rank right above worthless. The problem is: people with bolt in cages dont know the difference until they drive a similar prepared car with a welded in cage.

Chat is back up JP. Use IP address 67.115.122.27

B

[J P Stein]

Believe me, I know and would never consider doing it again.
I learned some stuff and can now say BTDT, but that's about all.
I prolly could have found someone locally to do it, but it's doubtful they would have been the quality shop that yours is.
If I hire you to do my thinkin' and work, all I get to do is dream up ways to spend money.....a bad situation.

I wanted to stiffen the chassis and was reasonably sucessful at that. More tubes would have done mo better....maybe some other day.

How's the SSI bidness?
Gonna' do some 914/6 heat exchangers? No rush, I'm fresh out of play money.

I've been on chat.....Chris' fix. Izat the same?
Nope, different.
What's the connection title?

[Racer Chris]

Originally posted by J P Stein
I may have been dancing between the rain drops for all these years, but you, Chris, don't have the wherewithal to make a judgment here. However, since your opinion seems so important to you, I will make every attempt to keep my skull intact while driving. Should I fail, you can say "I tole' you so".
Careful with that pen, you could poke your eye out.

BTW, my doors work just fine....but it took some doin' on the pass side. Even a "nut" can handle that.

J P,

I would like to thank you for setting me straight. I did not take into account just how thick some peoples' skulls are. You should keep dancing between the raindrops though as it appears your skin is quite thin. As for the cage thing I guess I was right. Maybe it's just a matter of time on the other thing too.
I am not afraid of taking risks but I would like to do them on my terms. I have driven a 914 to three regional SCCA road racing championships and do all my own work. I believe that gives me the wherewithal to have an opinion on safety.
Now that I have had my fun feel free to take another crack at me.

Chris Foley

www.tangerineracing.com

[J P Stein]

Ok, so I over reacted.
It happens.
There's a world of experts telling me I need their guidance. Sometimes I disagree.
If you have a problem with that, tough crap.

As for "another crack", go find someone else willing to exchange insults with you. That isn't why I come here .