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new 914-6 discussion - which 911 engine to use?

Not that I am in a position to take advantage of any of this advice right now, but while I have seen the 914-6 vs "big 4" debate several times on the board, I haven't seen a spirited discussion of the best 911 engine to use and the pros and cons of each. For example, I have ridden in Jim Smolka's 3.2 (?) fuel injected 914-6 and it struck me as a great way to get modern reliability in a 30 year old car - less than 10 year old engine with modern, low mileage f.i. components. I would imagine, though, that there are some wiring issues and what to do if you want heat? Patrick's ad in Excellence features his 3.6 DME conversion hardware - do I need a sawzall and an electrical engineering degree from MIT to get one of those in a street 914? Finally, 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4l 911s seen easy to come by for parts cars. If you start with a 2.0-6, for budget purposes, what would you have to change if you stumbled on a 3.6 engine under the x-mas tree a few years later (does it need a bigger oil tank, different heat exchangers, etc)?
Old 08-08-2002, 09:57 AM
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What is it that you want from the car?

If you're racing/time trialing/autoXing, there will be classification rules to deal with. Some of them will require a 2.0 911T-spec motor only (i.e., original 914-6).

If you're looking for as close to a bulletproof daily driver as you can find, the 3.0 911SC motor with its CIS injection works well.

If you don't want to mess with CIS, but feel you can cope with the DME, then an injected 3.2 will be a lot of fun.

Injected 3.6es seem to break 901-based transmissions frequently. Steve Iverson and Tony Inae have both had problems with this. A 915 tranny with an injected 3.6 is a truly scary amount of fun, though!

A lot of people like the simplicity (I'll say that guardedly) of carbs over any of the EFI/CIS/MFI setups. Weber 40s are a good size for a street version of any of the above, except possibly the 3.6 motors. Weber 46es are the next step up, and they are good for race 3.0s and 3.2s. Not sure where the 3.6 fits though.

I myself have always thought that a nice 2.4S motor with MFI would be a lot of fun. Still relatively light weight, but gobs of power and that lovely noise from the six intake throats.

JP seems really, really happy with his mostly-RS-spec carbed 2.7L engine. And I know people with CIS-equipped 2.7s (for California smog reasons) that have enjoyed them quite a lot.


...In general, I think the answer to "what's the best 911 engine for a conversion" is: YES!!!

--DD
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Old 08-08-2002, 10:18 AM
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Great start Dave

Just to get my bearings here (I don't have any references in front of me) - the 2.0 is the original six, the 2.7 was in some limited edition of the 914 (thus the smog exemption), the 3.0 is from the SC, the 3.2 was the Carrerra and the 3.6 was the last air-cooled engine in the 993? Although I thought that I would be able to swing some auto/x and/or track time when I bought my 914, my 18 month old son keeps me home on the weekends so my 914 fun is limited to my rolling 5 mile commute and an hour or so on the interstate every now and then. 3.6 is definately too much for me and would just get me arrested a little more quickly than the others as well. Yet Bruce Anderson's advice for Porsche's in general would seem to apply to the engines - buy the newest and best one you can afford to save money and aggravation down the road. Since the power differences and probably up front costs are modest between the engines (except for the newest I would guess), what about a discussion of the installation and maintenance issues - DME vs CIS vs carbs and the availability of heat exchangers, wiring looms and other conversion parts and what can be installed with a minimum of modification to the car.
Old 08-08-2002, 10:53 AM
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DD makes some pretty good points......and states the right question......waddaya want?

A light weight screamer or a luxo GT thingy (or as close as you can get with a 914)......some where in between?

It's wise (me thinks) to have a plan.
If you start with a smaller engine, all of the "stuff" is transferable over to a larger one up to the 2.7L (which can grow to 2.9L or $o).
The 3.0L is not bad, interchangeability wise. 3.2s, a bit less so & 3.6s.....bring money.


As a side note.
The induction system can be a big expense.
40 mm Webers (or PMOs)can be transfered across all the motors up to bout 3.2L (except for manifolds).

JPIII
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Old 08-08-2002, 11:05 AM
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Thanks JP. I especially welcome the "3.6 - bring money" comment. A plan is a good thing. I have a plain ol 73 1.7 and have started the trip towards more power (and more debt). I've got a core 2.0/4 engine and some 1.8 pieces and a plan to start building a 2.1/4 this winter. But by the time I upgrade to 2.0 fuel injection or buy a set of carbs and do all of the rebuild work, my wallet will be lighter by a few grand. I sold a running 2.4/6 with Webers a few years ago for $1500 when I parted my 73 911 so I figure that I may be better prepared for the inevitable horsepower creep by skipping the 2.0/4 step and going straight to a small 6 (and once you've gone for the small six, why not go a little faster). Of course all of this stuff can be sold off at a later date to fund upgrades but I was interested in "real life" stories of people who drive 6's daily with various engine sizes and setups in the hopes that people like you would say "Why bother with the 2.4 when 2.7s are the same price, more plentiful and have a more streetable power curve when used with CIS". And then the fellow from Canada with the 2.4 MFI would jump in and say, "Quoi? My 2.4/6 gets 28 miles to the gallon and I don't have to worry about the complete lack of replacement heads. Mon dieu, you guys with the 2.7s are arrogant! Don't make me send the Canadian Royal Marines."
Old 08-08-2002, 11:47 AM
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The 3.6 engine has NO engine mounted oil cooler and forces you to run one in the front. More money, more money.

All the tin pieces and factory 6 oil lines fit all the engines up to 3.2.

The 3.6 takes lots of custom pieces to install in a 914.

We race a 914/6 with a 3.0 in it with no front mounted cooler, just the stock 914/6 cooler. Works fine. We can run 20 minute races in 100 degree heat before it hits 240.

Food for thought. I have several people with factory 914/6's asking me to install 3.0-3.2's

Dont waste your money on anything less than a 3.0. Even if you have to save for another year. They are very very reliable, even with carbs.

B
Old 08-08-2002, 12:37 PM
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Heh, heh......."horsepower creep" is a good term. I'll prolly plariagize that at some point since I've been a victim.

The carbed, 2.4L, T, that I initially put in my car was about 130 hp. Another 80/90 hp was around $3500 after all the horse trading was done. This included a front mount oil cooler....not cheep, but worth every penny.
I'm of the "light weight screamer" school. It's not for everyone, but it rings my bells. If I ever catch up to the car, there may be more to come.
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Old 08-08-2002, 12:54 PM
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There's also the "rare" and interesting setups as well, like the short-stroke 2.5, 3.4 etc. Or a 2.7,2.8,3.0 MFI RSR kinda thing.

Or the really really $$$BIG$$$ guys like the 3.8's with custom everything.

Not impossible to spend 30-40K on the powerplant alone if you really try.

Overall I agree that the "sweet spot" for most 914 guys' needs is probably the 2.4-3.0 range.

I do love the zingy small sixes but torque is what gets you away from the red light, or slingshots you off the apex. And you really have to wail and thrash (rev-wise) on most of the 2.0-2.4 motors to stay up in the powerband. Takes a different kind of driving then most of us 'Muricans are used to. For example my daily driver S4 pulls like a freight train from about 1800 rpm's on up, in at least the first 4 gears...try that with a 2.0-2.2S motor. (No don't, it will hate you).

I have no idea what I will eventually do on my sixer but very likely a massaged 3.0...after that bathroom remodel for the wifey is done
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Old 08-08-2002, 02:50 PM
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Stock 3.0 with Webers and headers.....
Great sound..... Nice Torque lots of power....
If I want to get crazier I could do some cams and head work but this is fine for now......
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Old 08-08-2002, 05:12 PM
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We like the 3.0, Euro P+C's with GE80 cams and 40mm Webers bored to 46mm (the 40's have a better off idle circuit) for a very nice reliable 245hp every time we dyno the stout street/track combo. This is with no headwork and Woods valve springs.

Next engine being assembled for my tube car is a short stroke 3.2 , J+E's, 12.5:1 , GE100 cams and 50mm throttle bodies for the injection. @ 10.5:1 it made 315hp. We have found that the GE100 cams like compression...so it should actually yield another 10-13hp.

Cant wait to get it on the dyno..

B
Old 08-08-2002, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BRM9148
Next engine being assembled for my tube car is a short stroke 3.2 , J+E's, 12.5:1 , GE100 cams and 50mm throttle bodies for the injection. @ 10.5:1 it made 315hp. We have found that the GE100 cams like compression...so it should actually yield another 10-13hp.

Cant wait to get it on the dyno..

B
Sweet...I haven't had a chance yet to ride or drive in a setup anywhere near that, yet, but hopefully someday soon (hint hint)

Are you using the TWM throttle bodies and TEC-III, or some other setup? What RPM is the peak HP on this bad boy? Just curious.
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Old 08-08-2002, 09:58 PM
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Is there a general cylinder and stroke and CR reference for the 911 engines?

I've been considering taking my shortstroke 914/6 factory engine to 2.5 mainly for the Aluminum Cylinders from the 2.7 for better cooling. I screwed up and missed out on a P&C set for about $100 on evil bay.

Thoughts?

James
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Old 08-09-2002, 06:42 AM
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James,

I don't have a six so I don't know many info sources, but the 911 Engine Tuning book by Anderson has that sort of data. Plus it describes the common performance upgrades, including bore and stroke increases. It's a good book. Wish we had an equivalent for the 914/4.

Mike
Old 08-09-2002, 07:25 AM
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Ah, a short stroke, 3.2...........maybe if I hit the lotto.
It's just too tough (for me) to justify the expense/reward ratio.....but if I was startin' from scratch..........
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Old 08-09-2002, 12:03 PM
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Keeping on the subject.....

How much case and head work would I need to do to make 95mm pistons work with the 2.0 911 T case. I would want to retain the 66mm stroke and let it rev! This would be a short stroke 2.8.

I'm not trying to make gobs of HP or torque. My main goal is to get away from Cast Iron cylinders.

James
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Old 08-09-2002, 12:49 PM
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You can't get there from here.
Your case has the "narrow" spaced head studs. This is true of cases up to and including the 2.7Ls.
I *think* your max bore is 92mm.

The later aluminum cases have "wider" spaced studs to accomodate the bigger cyls.
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Old 08-09-2002, 01:09 PM
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Chris,

Yes on TWM and yes on TECIII.

Yes on you can drive the car one day.

Power will happen around 7600RPM.

Depends on where we are running.

The plan is have different exhausts for different tracks (move the torque around and tune accordingly)


B
Old 08-09-2002, 01:20 PM
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K. I'll keep looking for 2.7's

James
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Old 08-09-2002, 03:03 PM
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