Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 914 & 914-6 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: san diego
Posts: 6
Smile 1.8 to 2.0

hi, i have a 1.8 engine and i'm building it up to the 2.0 range. being this my fist type 4 rebuilt. i would like to see if i could get any advice from this forum. so far this is what i'm planning.

1. use the 1.8 case and drop in the 2.0 crank and rods.

2.stick with my 1.8 heads and maintain the stock valves.

3.go with a #73 webcam.

4. can i use a 1.8 cylinder and get it bored for 2.0 96mm pistons?
or do i have to get 96mm p&c's

anything else i should keep in mind and put on my list. thanks
Old 08-11-2002, 03:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
Your plans sound right on for a first time build.. The heads are good for the application, and I can bore your existing cylinders for the 2.0/96mm pistons.

The 1.8 case will work just fine for what you are doing...

I have 2.0 crank and rod sets for sale, most of them are in great shape, we build so many strokers that I have a ton of 2.0 stuff.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
Old 08-11-2002, 03:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Brad Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Alta Loma, CA
Posts: 1,840
Do you *really* bore his cylinders ??

I assumed you where hooked up pretty good and wouldnt have to go through this step and could just sell him new ones complete with pistons.

B
Old 08-12-2002, 11:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
Yep, here is why..

The original cylinders may be 30 years old, but are superior to the new ones in every aspect.

*Original cylinders have better cooling fins that are long and thin, reaching completely to the root of the cylinder, the new ones do not. After we torque plate hone these cylinders and set the roughness average of the final hone(according to ring manufacturer, they are the best thing on the market. During this process I can set piston skirt/cylinder clearance on eacy cylinder. This can vary from near zero to .004 on the new cylinders according to piston choice.

* New cylinders are "Universal", one size fits all. That spells death in one sentence.

*Original cylinders are not being produced in some 3rd world country by a guy making 5 cents per hour

*many new cylinders are not true from the factory, they are either not round, or have a taper right out of the box.

* All new cylinders should be subject to a truing process to ensure they have true seating surfaces, else head leaks are gonna be there and really quick most of the time.

* New cylinders have been off in length from .005-.020 before, this is non sense and will create havoc on deck heights and cylinder sealing..Some people don't check them, so they never even know whats wrong.

In a nutshell: OEM cylinders rock! they cool, they have been through heat cycles and will hold their size after boring. They have correct materials,(not just normal automotive gray cast iron)

The aftermarket cylinders are made to be sold for a profit, and mostly by people that don't build engines for a living...(ask your parts salesman how many engines he builds a year and what kind of car he drives to work, you'll be suprised)

It takes me 5 hours to clean, machine and bore a set of OEM cylinders, or it takes me almost 2 days to get the aftermarket ones to equal the standards of the OEM cylinders....I could bolt them on with no mods, but............Thats how you get a bad rep.

The other alternative is a set of Biral Babies from www.lnengineering.com these guys know their stuff and have tolerances so tight it makes my head swim.........they are nice and worth every dollar.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com

Last edited by Jake Raby; 08-13-2002 at 07:20 AM..
Old 08-13-2002, 07:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 136
Here's the proof right here...

I have a T4 going into a VW Bug, it is a 2270cc (78.4x96). I had a set of the "new" 96mm cylinders and JE pistons. The "new" cylinders were all out of whack, they were tapered and out of round.

I sent a set of used 94's from a Bus to Jake and he bored them for me.

The rings set quite nicely after the break-in.

I would suggest it to ANYONE who wants a good set of cylinders. I am sure Jake could bore out those 1.8's to 94mm, or all the way to 96 - Either would be good.

I would go up to 96's if it were me.

Later,
Tom
Old 08-13-2002, 07:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Brad Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Alta Loma, CA
Posts: 1,840
You actually didnt have to explain why. I knew why.

I'm guessing you have some pull in the engine building industry.

Why dont you have a manufacturer make some to your specs ?

We all know your in bed with lnengineering.com, but dont you think somebody, some manufacturer somewhere would make you a iron cylinder that met your demands ? It would eliminate that 5 hours worth of labor.

I think past the 8-10 cylinders and wonder if a company could produce several hundred sets for you to eliminate this 5 hour process. Charge the customer your 5 hour process but make more money by not spending the time to do it. It will take money up front to get the intial batch going but it will pay off in the long run.

Your manufacturing engines right now.

No question that the OE cylinders are very good.

Your customers are very good also. The slightest *hint* of agression towards their leader and they start swarming like a rabid pack of dogs (pun intended).

I look forward to dealing with you in the very near future. I was delivered 2 engines last night that where orginialy developed for the IMSA series a guy was running in a 914. These are the dry sumped 2400 cc engines with aluminum cyclinders and flat top pistons.

B
Old 08-13-2002, 09:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
Having someone produce cylinders for me is out of the question...I only build 50-75 engines per year, it would take me years to ever use the amount of pistons you referred to in the last post.....The OEM cylinders are the best thing I have found, the extra 5 hours is just time needed to get the part to my specs, it is figured into my proposals as a standard for 90% of what I assemble.

If I were going to step up to the plate to have thing manufactured I would definately not waste my time on a total cast iron cylinder. All that design work to keep the same characteristics as the OEMS. I'm not "In bed" with LN ENGINEERING. I have been a beneficial part of their team with hands on engine building experience and able to point out minute problems that they were able to address with their products. They are engineers, I'm a machinist/ assembler/and dirty hands guy that has made alot of mistakes, we work together well, but I have NO (zero) interest in their company.....I just love what they are doing.

The answer is yes they are making Biral cylinders just for me, to my specs and that will solve the 5 hour process, and yield a better cooling cylinder at the same time. A huge accomplishment.

As for my customers:

I consider myself very lucky to have a smaller very indulgent customer base, filled with a wide variety of applications. It is very rare for any engine builder in this industry to receive reviews such as mine on the net, by word of mouth, etc. Fact is that atleast 75% of my customers end up being my very good friends, they span from my home state to singapore and the middle east.....Yes, I'm very lucky, but work hard for their support.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com

Last edited by Jake Raby; 08-13-2002 at 10:02 AM..
Old 08-13-2002, 09:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Brad Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Alta Loma, CA
Posts: 1,840
I was under the impression you where building 100's of engines a year.

I'm glad your carrying on the type 4 development, we have been drag racing or road racing these engines since the late 70's and long ago recognized their potential.

The "in bed" reference was tongue and cheek (I assume you took it that way)

Has Motormeister contacted you yet on working for them ?? LOL

I will contact you when the get these two engines apart.

B
Old 08-13-2002, 10:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
Glad we clearec the air about my production......I could build 500 engines a year, but then the fun is gone......Just me and one other builder work in my shop....Small= good

Anyway, I prefer to do work for individuals, Motormeister has not contacted me, I doubt they will....LOL, until they could match my current position here (owner) I'm not interested!!

Let me know what the 2 engines turn out like internally, I have several updates to the bottom end assembly you should consider.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com

Last edited by Jake Raby; 08-13-2002 at 10:28 AM..
Old 08-13-2002, 10:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Brad Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Alta Loma, CA
Posts: 1,840
Here are a couple of pics.

I fully understand the small crew business approach. The quality will stay right where it is as long as you have total control over it.





They used a 911 head gasket to keep everything seeled up. The cylinder and heads where both cut for the head gasket.

B
Old 08-13-2002, 10:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
Looks like they still had a head weeping on #1.......Are those Oettinger Aluminum cylinders, or old birals from Saco, it is hard to judge but they look aluminum...

They should have changed head stud materials to compliment them if they are pure aluminum with plating......LNENGINEERING designed new sttuds from the same materials as a post 2.7 /911 engine to cure the expansion problems....no head gasket needed, on a 102 bore with no 5 or 6 studding and not a single leak @ 10:1 cr.....and a lazy hydro cam.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
Old 08-13-2002, 10:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,330
Does the low quality of the new cylinders apply to the "stock" 94mm replacements with Mahle pistons, or just the 96mm sets?
Old 08-13-2002, 10:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Brad Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Alta Loma, CA
Posts: 1,840
Jake,

For the technology in 1984 when they where running this engine.. they where doing pretty good. Dave Finch hadnt even thought about Raceware yet and ARP was still helping General Dynamics with hardware supply. I was 14.

When this engine goes back together it will get all the goodies and updates you can throw at me. The engine was in a 1300lb 914 race car and will go back into something just as exciting.

The P+C's are Oettinger Aluminum.

B
Old 08-13-2002, 11:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
Yeah I knew they were old, and the engines had been together a while....don't see that stuff everyday..

anyway, the raceware studs are FAR from my favorites, the insert methods they use are weak and it was cheaper for them to make them 10x1.5 x3/8" the way they did, their studs are just like the TI set they sell, just a different length.

The LN set needs no inserts, and is just like factory with their taper, they are made bt ARP and exceed Aerospace, the material is the same used in some FI studs, they are nice and insatll like a charm, I love them...mainly, they have the correct characteristics for aluminum cylinders, Raceware is just a chromo stud....The raceware case stud set is cool, and I use them quite a bit on full out engines..
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
Old 08-13-2002, 11:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
As for new mahle cylinders....they are not as good as the old ones, but are better than the aftermarket 96mm cylinders by 300%....the main problem with the new Mahles is incorrect (to tight) skirt clearance, inconsitant decks, and the pistons have been 23 grams out of balance rightout of a box never untaped....

I increase skirt clearance by .001 and change rings to Deves, then install them after measurement, good luck is all we have had....
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
Old 08-13-2002, 11:21 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:43 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.